Pope Francis has died

China disappeared the Panchen Lama, the second-most important religious figure in Tibetan Buddhism, and replaced him with a China-selected puppet.

But the Panchen Lama is not the successor to the Dalai Lama. The whole point is that the Dalai Lama will be reincarnated when he dies, so his successor isn't born yet.

The Dalai Lama recently proclaimed that his successor will be born in the free nations outside China - allowing him to be born, say, among the substantial Tibetan refugee populations in Nepal or India.

However, it's a near-certainty that China will select its own successor from a family loyal to the CCP, and from within China-controlled Tibet, while Tibetans outside the country will likely recognize another.

It should be a big deal when he does since he’ll be the last one because China kidnapped the successor

Presumably Catholics outnumber Tibetan Buddhists.

According to wikipedia, there is rougly 2.5 Billions of Christians with half of them being _catholic_, moreover the Catholic church is a relatively centralised religion giving a lot of power to the Pope compared to other religious leaders. So I can't think about many religious leader having that much global authority.

I Wouldn't be surprised that the death of Ayattolah Khamanei will also quite a big news. However, while pretending to be "a religious leader" he is also the _de facto_ political leader of Iran

What's your point here? The Dalai Lama's influence is basically nonexistent when compared to the Pope.

Yes. Even for non-Catholics it's notable because the Pope has so much influence in Christendom.

I suppose it depends on where you live ......

He was the raddest pope ever. They say his coffin practically glows

Same.

It was quite big in Latin America and perhaps the Philippines. The biggest left wing groups and anti-dictatorship movements in the 20th century was influenced by the Catholic church. I am no longer religious, but I would not be the person I am today had I not been brought up in a Catholic environment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

Conspiracy theorists are already making new theories about Vance killing the Pope for refusing to "Play ball" with the Trump Agenda

Political extremists aren't always the best at differentiating between correlation and causation. Let's see how this plays out.

A lot of them adopted Christianity and made their own version. Few are Catholic, mostly just Latin America it seems.

Christianity adopted and adapted a lot of local religions and traditions when it spread outside the Roman Empire, so really it's only fair that people adapt Christianity to their own cultures.

I'm surprised there's not a bigger anti-Christian movement among the various colonized cultures, to be honest.

I understand the abhorrent history of church run schools, but what did Pope Francis, specifically, do to garner such hatred from you? He's been the most liberal pope we've ever had? Celebrating the previous popes death, I get, but Francis?

Yes that is what they meant

Or, on the theory that we're living in the stupidest timeline, they'll go with "Pope Biden I."

Frances said some good stuff but did he do anything meaningful to bring the church into this century

Lol.

Battle Pope! With flying "Rocket Papal Punch" action! Only $12.25 at your nearest Vatican.

We can hope.

But also: "papacy"? Sounds like a dynamic I need in my life (:

They're the ones that invented hell in the first place. That's being the gatekeeper of your own imaginative fuck-you land, you can do whatever you want since it doesn't even exist in the first place.

Oh hey if you beat your children and don't support people that support trans people you're going to urusjsttisstiidtiyd after you die and it sucks and people punch you in the face and it smells like shit and jd vance sticks his fingers in your mouth randomly and it's all the worst stuff you can imagine and it curses your family forever and if you do support trans people with everything and don't worry i can read your thoughts i mean the super powerful all powerful everywhere all the time in everything force person called odyysiid5tditkxhck can read your thoughts and knows if you're being bad or even considering it or thinking about anything bad.

^ religion, my new one that you should follow, also you go to the good place where all your dreams come true and you can be with all your loved ones forever and there's all the things you want trust me bro you want this and not the bad forever ending. It's called RaulingSucksDurt-ism and it's real and all the other religions aren't real and they're all actually going to urusjsttisstiidtiyd for not even believing. The best thing you can do actually is to show them the light and save them from urusjsttisstiidtiyd because that's bad and you want to be good right? The other religions just lie to you and it's actually the leader of urusjsttisstiidtiyd whispering in their ear and they're all victims bro, help them bro before it's too late, they're all bad bro help them with your love

There's some hope.... part of Francis' papacy involved him promoting more open-minded cardinals (who are the ones who choose popes) but we'll see

My sincere hope is that the Catholic Church looks at how they were perceived under Benedict—a staunchly conservative Pope that led to massive losses in respect, attendance, and relevance; and how they were perceived under Francis—an actually compassionate and humble servant of the Church and its people. And based on that, they choose another Pope who's in the same vein as Francis to continue bringing the Church into this century. There is still decades of work to be done, but we absolutely can't go backwards right now.

Im waiting for all the articles whe we he said something nice about gay people, so hes super progressive and we should be nice to the church cause they like us

Only to go to the comments where someone points out the next sentence he said was we are still going to hell

This just in: the Catholic Church chooses Andrew Tate as their new pope

I think with the current zeitgeist we're in for a Battle Pope this time.

For the past 600 years, the pope has always been a cardinal.

The last time someone other than a cardinal was elected was 1296, they elected some monk who was something of a holy figure. It was a clusterf*"#, lasted 5 months and every decision he made was reversed by it's successor except for one (the right for pope's to abdicate). Which kinda sounds like Bidens term in office, but let's not give him another chance at being useless, ok?

(There were some other non-cardinals after, but all of them clergy, and mostly during or shortly after the Avignon papacy)

I didn't say they would. I said they could. Jokes aside, I would be VERY surprised if old Joe got picked for this, both for the reasons you mentioned and because of the decline he's been going through recently.

Technically. Being a cardinal is an unwritten requirement seeing as they, with very few exceptions, have preferred to elect a cardinal to be pope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-cardinals_elected_pope

Let's go. Pope Biden can be the seventh.

They aren't going to pick someone that isn't in the room when they vote on it.

So just any guy, even if he isn’t Christian, can be baptised in the morning and then get appointed pope in the afternoon?

Uhm, pretty sure being a baptized Catholic is pretty much the only requirement...

From Wikipedia:

The pope does not need to be a cardinal elector or indeed a cardinal; since the pope is the bishop of Rome, only those who can be ordained a bishop can be elected, which means that any male baptized Catholic is eligible.

actually in theory yes any catholic can be pope.

in practice, however…

Psh, details, shmetails.

They once made a monk Pope I know, I'm not sure if he was also a priest. Certainly wasn't a cardinal though I think that was one of the arguments in favor of him.

Actually officially any male catholic can be pope, it's just in practice cardinals always choose one of their own

He is probably younger than most of the other candidates.

It's a funny thought, but he's not a cardinal or even a priest. Not just any Catholic can be Pope.

Edit: turns out, yes, any Catholic can theoretically be pope

Pope Brandon I

They are really unlikely to support a non cleric. All the decision makers sacrificed a lot of typical life time activities to be clerics, they aren't going to lift up sometime who hasn't also made these sacrifices.

Oh shit.

Pope Fabian Ⅱ

I dont think another crusade is necessary just to bring Biden to justice.

They don't have to though. Could just pack it all up, put it in a museum for boring people and move on with their lives.

I mean... yes, that's what they do?

JD Vance is the impostor.

Well they did meet actually.

Did JD Vance murder the Pope? It could be. Hey, I'm just asking questions here...

Classic

Yes, Ironic's lyrics contain no irony, which is ironic.

But the whole song is the irony. She's just playing chess while we're all playing checkers.

I blame Alanis Morttisette for people confusing coincidence, weird juxtaposition, and shitty luck with irony.

Hours later, even.

Isn't it ironic? Don't ya think?

Many people are asking "Did JD Vance have a hand in the Pope's death?"

He died the very next day.

Would YOU want to keep on living if you had to speak to JD Vance?

Isn't it

1) JD Vance asks to meet Pope

2) Pope slights Vance, refuses to meet

3) Pope dies the next day

???

Very sus

As new Pope, I promise to repeat the Cadaver Synod. I promise to dig up the corpse of Pope Benedict XVI and put him on trial for his homophobia and transphobia! And I may not stop at him...I may have to set up a whole special court just for putting former popes on trial.

My partner added "as someone who can't even say the word 'seminary" without giggling..."

Checkmate ~~athiests~~ Catholics.

I promise to spend the entire papacy dressed in dresses that look like they belong in the White Tower scenes in the *Wheel of Time* series.

So we should thank TERFs for having a trans women Pope? Watching TERFs meltdown over these would be hilarious.

But according to TERFs and fash, she *is* a guy though

Eh. Rules are arbitrary and can be changed.

This, in the Catholic Church, transwomen actually do count as women. Recent ruling, they're against "Gender Ideology", whatever the fuck that means, but make exceptions for transpeople due to Francis ruling gender dysphoria a geniune medical issue that is exempt from rules against whatever "Gender Ideology" is

Without going into spoilery details, the film Conclave raised a very interesting question about pope eligibility. Recommend checking it out, not just for the topical relevance but also simply because it's a good movie.

You’d have to call uno reverse trans

Hey, hey, hey... there's always Pope Joan. ;)

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pope-Joan

Pretty sure the church doesn't recognize trans people

Only guys can be Pope.

I know I'm an unorthodox choice.

There's a joke somewhere in here

Your candidacy would put the Church in quite a predicament, for sure. They could either embrace a trans woman as a leader (confirming that there's nothing wrong with trans people) or reject her for being a woman (therefore admitting that one can, in fact, change their gender).

Of course, this is a false dichotomy, but a good PR team could spin it as a human rights win either way.

"As a lapsed Catholic trans woman who's never so much as visited a seminary, I know I'm an unorthodox choice."

As someone in the same position good luck

Man had to go see for himself if humanity really killed God

Thank you for sharing this

I’m as atheist as can be and I don’t really have a good view of the Catholic Church (or most churches) in general for obvious reasons but this pope was indeed better than the ones before him and that was a good moment from him

"Have you said Thanks, even once?"

Is Francis really your name? What's on your birth certificate?

JD Vance: "How long have you worked here?"

His last words: "Dear Father in heaven, that unsufferable man!"

I actually saw a headline yesterday about how the Pope “ghosted” JV Dunce. 😫👻

Don't worry. If I'm elected pope, you'll get to see the return of the Cadaver Synod, bigger and better than ever! In fact, I'll set up a whole special court just to try former popes I have a theological beef with! They'll have several cases going on simultaneously. I'll put dozens of former popes on trial!

oh I forgot about that, you win this comment section 😂

It wouldn't be the first time!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod

He's being replaced because he dead yo.

Good pope tho.

I like the implication that they interrogated a dead body about its opinion on terrorism lmao

Some gold from that document:

In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.

Would be funny to make a quote collection titled "Who said this? Pope Francis or a socialist?"

For the time he had, the distance he brought the Church is pretty impressive. I will go to my grave believing that organized religion does more harm than good, nothing they ever do will change my mind. That said, he really was an agent for positive change, especially compared to Darth Benedict, who preceded him.

Not to mention his stance against zio terrorism. That's probably why he's being replaced.

Again, fuck that.

"Sorry our trans friends. We would love to stop saying you are going to hell and are inhuman but doing so might mean we do even worse stuff in the future. Hey, don't forget the alms basket, You... probably shouldn't be in our churches but you can go to this website and give us money anyway"

I think what they're saying is more along the lines of fracturing the existing org and replacing it with something *worse*.

You'll understand if I honestly don't care if a fundamentally hateful and harmful org broke up.

If "maybe we should stop supporting transphobia and rape and..." will kill an org... that org probably shouldn't exist at all.

i'd just like to say this aged badly. not quite like milk, but still rancidly

I mean... he spent some of his final hours with jd vance. Doesn't get more hellish than that.

It's like, he was pretty woke for a Pope, but, he was still a Pope.

I don't think things would have worked out well had he gone full prog anyway. There'd be schisms for sure. Hell, Trump would probably declare an American Catholic Church and have himself elected Pope of it. (Shit, I really shouldn't have given him that idea)

I don't really know which way he personally felt. But even a Jesuit at the end of the day is a Catholic.

I hate that you're right. Like, seeing how kind and compassionate the man was outwardly in the day to day and knowing of the horrors he and the church participated in and tried to hide... It makes me all the more sour to organized religion.

100%

After the way he let Robert Finn skate when he ran cover for a priest raping kids, Francis belongs in Hell. It's a bummer that Hell isn't a real place.

Hefty tariffs on communion hosts

Like that will stop him from trying.

Well, yeah, but that wouldn't stop him from trying.

I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I don't think the American president gets to appoint the next pope....

- Some MAGA-Nut somewhere, probably

probably closer to all of 'em

This has ***so*** been done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclavism

I declare myself Epop and denounce the Pope!

username checks out

Rest in piss indeed

Well three popes have died since 2005.

I mean, people can simultaneously realise the gravity of this, AND poke fun at the coincidence thst the Pope died after meeting JD Vance.

You aren't contributing much either by making an entire comment criticising those people. Why not ignore and move on and make an useful comment?

It's also okay to not have something important or ground-breaking to say. I don't think people saying JD killing him are ruining the internet.

There have been several popes in my lifetime and the only one I really remember going was jp2, and that wasn't even a huge story in the scheme of things.

Check out my other post.

https://feddit.org/post/11169779/6171380

I didnt even mean it as a joke. I wouldn't put it past the MAGA Nazi scum.

That's not even a joke. What you said is true.

That just makes him easier to knock off.

They usually are, but I also had doubts that a weirdo becomes POTUS again. Everything seems to be possible these days...

Vance is too stupid, he'd fuck it up.

Remember this?

He'd end up putting the Iocaine powder in his own tea.

Someone else in his entourage did something nefarious.

JD probably got the measles and took it to see an old sickly man. Hence why he was so insistent on seeing him.

>There hasn't ever been a pope from the US.

Boom! There's the hook. The Catholic church is HUGE in America, the fourth highest Catholic population in the world, behind Brazil, Mexico, and Phillipines, and ahead of countries like Italy, Spain, France and Argentina, all of whom have contributed Popes.

Expect the MAGA Nazis to demand that the next Pope be an American of their choice, with all sorts of threats to follow, including removing their tax-exempt status.

I doubt that the Catholic Church is big enough in the US for them to have that much of an influence on who the next pope is. There hasn't ever been a pope from the US.

Perhaps he will rise higher after HitlerPig threatens their tax-exempt status.

Currently sixth favourite only, so barring some big upset, not likely to win.

Good one, this needs to be much higher.

I was going to post that HitlerPig will be pushing his own choice for Pope, and here we are. Now I'm wondering if Couchfucker slipped something into the Pope's tea.

Jesus, he looks like that mobbed up character from the Untouchables:


You mean like this guy?

Who is Raymond Burke, the cardinal Donald Trump wants to be the next Pope?

From what I understand, the rest of the Roman Catholic Church sees US Catholics as weird and a kind of lost cause. So I have doubts that the US would have too much sway over the conclave.

It would be more than coincidence if the next Pope was an ultra-conservative, GOP-friendly guy from the US and A. Of course this would never happen, but.... ehm... who knows?

He’s been sick for a while.

I'm too lazy to look it up so just imagine that gif of Chidi saying "That's worse".

Close. It was more like "i may be wrong but I don't care".

It's not my fault that I was wrong.

TBF the layout is pretty confusing.

I did consider when making my comment that it could likely be work of an artist, but if the artist chose AI slop as their aesthetic, it was a conscious choice. Thanks for the source, though.

https://cagle.com/cartoonist/marian-kamensky/2025/04/21/295020/easter-miracle-with-jd-vance

https://humor-kamensky.sk/cartoons

If you're gonna call someone out you can atleast double check first

AI slop

Probably, he finished him...


Wait, so the vaccine hating vp bowman visits the Vatican and the next day the pneumonia suffering Pope dies. Coincidence...?

Ask Pete

Someone also clicked the comment suggestion and said "congratulations"

Someone liked this guys death...


>thousands of popes who came before him

Francis was Pope # 266.

it's relative, he was progressive compared to the thousands of popes who came before him

Yup. Against gay marriage and women's reproductive rights. Very conservative

Depends how tuned in you are.

If it wasn't for this pinned post on Lemmy I wouldn't have known.

It is generally used similarly to "life goes on". Even if with more pessimism about the fact that certain things don't change (sometimes for good though).

It is still going to be a big deal for a few weeks though...

Poisoned to make room for new pope tRump

Relocated to another position, a lateral movement perhaps.

The only purity test pass would be a person who refuses to do it, the only progress would be the collapse of that genocidal church

Ah yes, the expected purity test. Let's just ignore any progress made and make snark remarks online while we wait for the 100% ideologically pure.

As others have said, Francis also stacked the electors who will be deciding the next pope, so it is possible that his successor will also be just as progressive (well, progressive for the leader of a conservative religious institution, at least).

Yeah, he ALMOST restored the office of Pope to relevancy :D

When his draconian successor inevitably comes along, we can go back to ignoring the papacy again.

The most PR pope, never meant anything he said, all gaslighting and hollow platitudes, no actual change, still shuffled around and defended pedos

If Modi suddenly died, you bet it would be pinned. Same in Politics if Trump died.

A billion people live in India, i expect a pinned post next time india pm dies, for his funerals and for the elections of a new pm...

I'm gonna specify next that the pope is in charge of the biggest cult.

At this point, it just feels like I'm punching down. So I'm gonna go ahead and stop, because you clearly are not equipped to meet me where I am.

Please continue spamming the same link with the same commentary. They are sure to listen to you if you just scream louder. You aren't swinging at ghosts at all. :)

but you definitely left out the context that would cast doubt on your initial message.

Here is it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2021/vatican-sexual-abuse/

The cult leader was addressing sexual abuses in church seminars and said that there are too many "fags" in there.

someone exploiting death for the sake of argument, which makes you no better than the Catholic church by your own admission.

Unlike the catholic church i'm not exploiting death to convey lies and promote my cult, i'm not exploiting death at all i'm simply commenting on a pinned thread about the shady stuff this guy was involved in.

Now fuck off back to r/atheism and quit spamming lemmy news threads with edgy drivel.

r/atheism is where they discuss the non-existence of god. A news thread looks fit to discuss the shady scandals involving the person in question. Perhaps you should go to r/chatolicchurch

"Old" is subjective, and I'd still say they're old and have been repeated ad nauseum, but you definitely left out the context that would cast doubt on your initial message. This is intellectually dishonest.

I wish you'd quote what I said about the thesaurus and take that into consideration, too. There are other words besides "internally appointed CEO" and "cult." It's literally just spam for spam's sake. We get it dude, you're mad at the church. Go be mad at it someplace other than a news thread.

You don't come across as someone who cares about these issues or the people who have been hurt by the church. You come across as someone exploiting death for the sake of argument, which makes you no better than the Catholic church by your own admission.

Now fuck off back to r/atheism and quit spamming lemmy news threads with edgy drivel.

you’re sensationalizing old stories

They are not old stories, the homophobic slurs were from last years and the context is a recent scandal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2021/vatican-sexual-abuse/

If you’re going to use someone’s death as a jumping-off point for pointless masturbatory anti-religious rhetoric

"Someone" is the internally appointed CEO of a cult that use death for any sort of non-sense masturbatory rhetoric.

Yeah yeah yeah you've spammed the same thing all over the thread and I don't give a fuck. We all know the issues with religion.

It's already been shown elsewhere you're sensationalizing old stories to turn another person's death into your soapbox. It's crass, and it turns people away from your message. If you're going to use someone's death as a jumping-off point for pointless masturbatory anti-religious rhetoric, be prepared for people to see it for what it is and you for what you are. Or at least use a fucking thesaurus dude.

The cult this guy is the internally appointed CEO of, does not spare people guilty of homosexuality even after their dead: they are to be damned for the rest of the eternity.

A pinned post where people are praising him to me looks like the right time and place to remind people about the shady shit this guy was involved in.

The loss of the Pope represents a seismic shift impacting 1.3 billion Catholics in 160 countries. It's the definition of "World News".

I'm not a Christian and I recognize this which is why I pinned it. Will do the same thing for his funeral and the election of the new Pope.

There's a time and place to be a euphoric neckbeard. This is neither.

Nah. Cults are small religions. He was in charge of the biggest religion. That's the opposite of a cult.

I know. That's what's scary. You remember the post from somewhere, where a redneck called the pope not a real Christian? Because he showed compassion?

You joke, but I'm sure that someone somewhere is saying it seriously.

Somehow Palp.....I mean Pope returned.

You will hardly find any theists in Lemmy, let alone staunch Catholics.

You have to give credit to where it's due, Pope Francis did his best as the leader of one the biggest religious organisations. And I am not defending where the gap of his leadership had been, but leaders never have absolute authority because this is an often false notion they always do. Keep that mind, as he still have to contend with his subordinates. I mean, a leader is still just one person versus the aristocrats and elites who lend support and authority. The subordinates actually have the power if you think about it (like, who elects the pope after all?) That being said, I am no longer religious but I have read over the years of court intrigues of friction between conservative and progressive Catholic clergies. Many conservative clergies complain about Francis and said they miss Pope Benedict XVI. Francis had to play a delicate balance of court politics.

You ended up in the Catholic thread bro, everyone here bought the PR and actually believed this guy was good

Vatican itself does not have much influence on this election. Francis was smart enough to appoints lots of bishops from "remote" regions like for example Mongolia or Pakistan, who have not been able to form political networks with each other and make it far more difficult for court intrigues to work out. Yes , the conclave surely will see those again, but there should be a counter weight at play here

There is no progressive in the catholic church

Yes.

Yes, you should.

Because as much as you see it as a domestic throwaway denomination among many, they are extremely and increasingly overrepresented in developing countries (and a couple of European ones as well).

So if you want to know which way the use of contraceptives, the position on gay people or the express support for neofascism is going to go in Africa this is relevant.

It is not about the US or their opinions. And I say this as an atheist.

The pope is elected in his country

Vance is actually a secret agent that killed the Pope, no one would suspect the murder of a dying man! It's like a bad Tom Clancy novel.

Oh yeah, the death of an 88-year-old man who has been suffering from serious medical issues for months is so odd and unexpected that it is more reasonable to propose that the vice-president of the US personally killed him.

So progressive there's an anti Vatican II movement in America

much better than anyone before him within the last few hundred years

John XXIII was pretty progressive, wouldn't you think?

I don't feel that sorry when an old person dies, they've lived their life, and dying is a natural part of the cycle. I do feel bad for those they left behind, who will miss them dearly.

I feel worst for young people who die before their time, and never got to experience the life they planned for, that's a true tragedy.

I'm entitled to not feel sorry for the unelected ruling class dying. Whether it's the queen, or it's the pope.

Both brought more misery than did good. The existance of them both were a net negative to the world.

Fuck the church.

Great post. Holding the leash on the next Pope would be a huge strategic coup for the MAGA Nazis, and too much of a temptation to resist. There are no coincidences in politics, and dropping dead immediately after Couchfucker's visit is to close to not be suspicious.

I expect a full court press by the MAGA Nazis to have their hand-picked creep as the next Pope, and they will make all sorts of threats to accomplish it. In the end, if the Vatican chooses someone other than the MAGA Nazi candidate, Catholics will suddenly become one more persecuted political democraphic in America.

The joke about Vance killing him? I don't think people mean it as a joke. That's how the mob-like tactics work. It's a very real consideration. Organized crime is intertwined deeply in American government and geopolitics.

Shit even the Vatican was wrapped up in mafia stuff in the past and probably still is.

Sorry but I used AI for this;

"The Vatican has been associated with mafia connections, particularly during the papacies of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. These connections have been linked to financial scandals and criminal activities involving figures like Michele Sindona and Roberto Calvi. Sindona, a reputed international mafia chieftain, was appointed as the Vatican banker by Pope Paul VI, leading to significant financial disasters and frauds. Calvi, the head of Banco Ambrosiano, was also deeply involved in money laundering and had ties to the mafia and the Vatican Bank under the leadership of Archbishop Paul Marcinkus. Marcinkus faced criticism from Pope John Paul II's inner circle but was protected by the Pope, highlighting the complex relationships within the Vatican during this period.

In recent years, efforts have been made to address these issues. The Vatican created a working group in honor of Rosario Livatino, a Catholic judge killed by the mafia, to study the expulsion of criminal organizations from the Catholic Church.

These initiatives reflect ongoing efforts to separate the Church from criminal influences and to promote integrity within its financial and organizational structures.

The Vatican's financial dealings have long been a source of scandal and embarrassment, contributing to a "black legend" that mars the Church's image. Pope Francis has been particularly active in reforming Vatican finances, centralizing control over Vatican assets to reduce the risk of corruption and illegal activities.

Despite these efforts, concerns about mafia influence persist, with investigations and arrests involving mafia members and their alleged cooperation with the Vatican Bank."

And trump....

"Donald Trump has been linked to organized crime figures throughout his career. He has been accused of doing business with and receiving favors from the Mafia during his early years as a developer in New York City. For instance, Trump used concrete supplied by companies controlled by the Mafia to build his properties, including Trump Tower, at a time when the concrete industry was under Mafia control.

Trump's lawyer, Roy Cohn, had ties to several Mafia bosses, and Cohn introduced Trump to some of these figures.

Trump also had business dealings with individuals who had connections to organized crime, such as John Staluppi, a "made" member of the Colombo crime family, and Kenneth Shapiro, who worked for Philadelphia mobster Nicodemo "Little Nicky" Scarfo.

In 2013, Trump admitted on David Letterman's show that he had encountered "characters" associated with organized crime during his time in New York, but claimed he tried to stay away from them.

These allegations have been detailed in various books and articles, including Wayne Barrett's biography "Trump: The Deals and the Downfall" and a book titled "'MAFIA' Don: Donald Trump's 40 years of Mob ties" by H.B. Glushakow."

Organized crime is a key player in national and geopolitics. It never went away, they got better at it. And corrupted officials got better at hiding them. America is probably currently dominated by organized crime right now.

There are four main rulers of humanity, nations/politicians, organized religions, 1% wealth business, and organized crime. They all mingle and all manipulate the poor and vulnerable to gather followers, soldiers, and sycophants in order to maintain control. It's very real war happening.

I agree the church is political and should be open about it, and pay taxes like any other political organization. Not just the Catholic Church but all denominations, and across the religions and around the world.

It is literally a political position. There's about to be an election to choose the next guy.

I agree that it is serious in that it's going to have an impact on people's lives, far beyond the relatively small direct power they have. That concerns me.

To be clear, I have zero respect for the institution, but I care about how they wield the influence they have, and I'd much rather have a relatively progressive guy like Francis than a relative reactionary like John Paul II, with all due respect to Polish pride. I'm assuming we can at least agree on taking him over Benedictus.

The church is political. The church should be political. Francis pushed for the church to take more of a stance and it rubbed "christian conservatives" the wrong way, because their political goals are a mockery of the values Jesus preached.

Compared to the iron grip the reactionaries held before my understanding is you're right. That doesn't mean that wing is going to get away with a continuist choice. I mean, it's more likely than it used to be, but I'm not making a call until the Habemus Papam.

Yeah sure it impacted our culture. But nobody believes in Christianity anymore. There's a political party dying because they have Christian in their name. Their voters literally keep dying year after year.

Haven't really heard anyone talk about this religion the past 10 years.

I've heard a lot about Islam though, because of immigrants. Like god damn these people actually still believe in a deity.

Anyways, have fun with your religion stuff. Keep it out of belgium

For one thing, Belgium is like 2% of the EU, so barely representative. For another, being actively practicing is less relevant than how much political influence is wielded and how many institutions are baked into the legal and political system to align with a particular worldview.

And for another another, this isn't about Europe (or the US) much at all. They matter way less than the countries trying to secure a semblance of civil rights in the context of an increasing interference from Western-originated religions using them as breeding grounds for retrograde conservatism.

So you are very welcome to remain oblivious and pretend you have culturally overcome the footprint of Christianity (which again, hah, nah), but that has zero bearing on the relevance of these events.

I can't really take it serious when Belgium is labeled as catholic Christianity majority.

The majority of practicing religious people are Muslim.

The churches are empty.

Europe has a history of stripping power from Christianity? Like, Europe Europe?

Is this some other Europe I don't know about? There may be an Europe I entirely missed somewhere, I suppose. Because the Europe I know took a millenia to marginally diminish the power of Christianity, and it only happened because of liberal democracy quietly supplanting spirituality for convenience. It was in no way, shape or form a political choice based on them "misbehaving".

I mean, even if that was true, which hah, nah, the places where the Catholic church is growing these days are in Africa and Asia. Stop making me have to lump Europeans with the gross ethnocentrism of USmericans.

Europe. We have a history of stripping power from christianity, and we'll continue till there's nothing left if necessary.

So yeah, just be powerless, it's just a religion.

I am very curious to know who "we" is in this context.

Cultism is such a potent tendency of the human animal that new cults form spontaneously in the absence of established mythologies (or despite them). Fascism is a cult phenomenon, for instance, and the people vulnerable to such belief systems are unerringly broken in the same way that religious people are broken. It’s like someone scooped out the part of their brains responsible for maintaining epistemic norms and replaced it with oatmeal.

You should know that lots of countries and societies will not do this. Especially in the global south.

Unfortunately that's not the way it works.

I mean, there are catholic priests and officials that are very liberal - they do exist. But those people do usually not even get into a position as a bishop, so they are not on the table to potentially become cardinals.

It helps a bit that typically those that have more compassion tend to be more liberal, but in general even the more liberal Catholics tend to be somewhat conservative

The catch is that he did not appoint by ideology. His appointments were mainly based on the guys doing work for poor people, for migrants, and on them doing their jobs in the global south.

Quite a few of these he made cardinals are somewhat conservative in their views, especially regarding sexuality

Haha I was thinking that, but there’s no way. And that’s a problem

Nope. Half of Germans (47%) don't have a confession. 21% of Germans are protestants.

She is describing herself as catholic though and even studied catholic theology.Her attack was directed at all churches, not just the catholic church.

More specifically she said "the churches shouldn't be another NGO" and then gave examples as to what they shouldn't talk about. So the idea is already that "NGO"s are something bad and civil society voicing political stances is bad. But then religious institutions commenting on how politics are in violation of the values the religion teaches, seems to be particularly disdained. This is also historically worrisome as the churches in the GDR used to be hailed for taking a stance against the regime and there is a lot of stories, how the churches in the third Reich would have taken stance, although i am not sure if the ratio of opposition/silence/collaboration is accurately represented in those stories.

It is not ironic, half of Germans are protestants.

Ah, I didn't knew there was a president in America that made the mistake of paraphrasing it like that. Shame on americans that keep bein' fooled in that fake democracy :P

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6436-there-s-an-old-saying-in-tennessee-i-know-it-s

As dumb as Bush was, he was smart enough to not say "shame on me" on camera.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushism

You can find the original quote in the examples section.

I can't read this. The saying I know is probably Roman: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me".

There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

I'm not Catholic, and i don't follow this stuff closely, but I've seen a LOT of popes come and go, and as far as I remember, the chosen pope has NEVER been the early favorite. Anybody whose name is being knocked around right now is unlikely to be the final choice, recently-historically speaking.

Bummer. Then I guess it’ll be another Italian.

A very old one indeed.

It's never certain how conclaves will go.


We'll see where it goes. They aren't exactly transparent about these things, and they've been arguing among themselves for a while. We'll know with the white smoke, I suppose.

There is a roman saying, "the one who enters conclave as the pope [to be] leaves it as a mere cardinal"

I think in terms of the church the term "conservative" does not necessarily align with the political understanding. The largest shift in the church is demographic. White Europeans are loosing power rapidly in the catholic church. Subsequently the catholic church will align less and less with "Western" conservatives, and their imperialist understanding of geopolitics.

I expect to see much more opposition of "christian conservative" politicians in Europe towards the catholic church.

Ironically just yesterday the president of the German federal parliament of the "christian conservative" CDU told the Churches to shut up about politics.

I'm waiting for someone to suggest that a it's time for the first woman pope.

"Francis appointed nearly 80% of the cardinal electors who will choose the next pope, increasing the possibility that his successor will continue his progressive policies, despite the strong pushback from traditionalists."

https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-has-died-vatican-says-video-statement-2025-04-21/

Yeah. It's more than annoying, especially as it's the same old Vance joke again and again and again.

Which isn't even clever.

I am not a Christian by any means but I worked with them quite often. Francis did change a lot of things and while he wasn't in no way perfect - he did have his drawbacks, for a fucking pope he was much better than anyone before him within the last few hundred years.

People (especially on the internet)nowadays expect other people, especially political leaders to "check all their boxes" and if one thing is not going as far as they want, they are alienated.

Often I have the impression that as long as someone is not going "all the way" in the right direction they are seen as bad as someone who does not do anything at all or goes in the wrong direction. (Which is ironic because the church itself has evolved past the "saint or sinner" directive)

Francis has been going in the right direction probably 60% of the way and 10% in the wrong direction. Is the Catholic church there yet? No.

Is there a big chance it might turn back? Yes.

Would he been elected if he was so reformist it was sure he would topple everything and go 100%? Surely not.

But he did much more than any of his predecessors did.

Any much more most commenters do.

Besides: It's okay to feel sorry for an old man dying. That's called fucking compassion.

I work in healthcare and have seen a lot of people die. I feel sorry for almost all of them.

In the end a human has died. Period.

I don't expect a conservative backlash, on the contrary Francis's Pontificate has weakened the conservative wing considerably. Given that 80% of the voting cardinals were appointed by Pope Francis, I would expect them to elect a successor that continues in the same direction, perhaps even a more radical one.

During his pontificate Francis also made a lot of efforts to bring in new groups into the corridors of power. Not only by his appointment of cardinals, but also e.g. by reforming the Curia with *Praedicate evangelium*.

As a non-Catholic American, I have the same worry for the global geopolitics. It just so happens that the united states is part of those geopolitics.

It sure feels like the tides are turning conservative everywhere, but apparently a Filipino progressive is a favorite to be next

>I am surpringly annoyed about Americans somehow finding a way to make this about themselves

Me too, bud. Me. Too. Alas, there is no escaping them for me. I do wish more Americans could travel abroad and see the world beyond our borders. I would wager fewer than 20% of Americans have been 50 miles from our borders and it can lead to a pretty insular world view.

Should we make it about a religion that's known for pedophile priests and them being protected? Or about how religion is a long con scam of power and wealth that has been the leading cause of war and persecution for centuries upon centuries?

Granted, by all appearances, I believe he seemed to be a pretty good guy. Hopefully the next pope will be as good. Take what you can while religions still exist, I suppose.

I am surpringly annoyed about Americans somehow finding a way to make this about themselves

And turning it into politics, because there is no otger way to talk about things

Sure, discussing politics is important to some degree, but it isn't the most important thing in our lifes

One of the most important persons in the world (atleast for catholics) has died. We shouldn't laugh about it. We shouldn't politicize it. We shouldn't take it to any other context.

I'm surprised and sad at the same time. Even tho i like edgy memes and memes about Pope John Paul II (he is a legend in Poland and polish community do meme about him but in a very respectful way), i really find it bad to do so about Pope Francis right now - so i dislike any post like this

It's just a religion, we strip it of any power if they misbehave.

Speculation is now mounting as to whether Vance might face manslaughter charges if lawyers can prove that sucking all hope from a room is technically a crime.

Lmao this has my rolling

Yeah, it's sarcastic but could be definitely true: https://newsthump.com/2025/04/21/pope-loses-will-to-live-after-meeting-jd-vance/

Like Liz Truss to the queen.

According to the article, the context for the flashy headline is that all Catholics are children of God and that all must be treated with compassion, while still acknowledging that pedophiles are monsters.

I will not pretend that Francis's hands are totally clean. He has mistreated abuse cases in the past. Around 2019 he actually started implementing some reforms that have to some extent helped. While I don't think he did enough, he did much more than his predecessors. I highly suspect the next pope will be another Benedict and not another Francis. Consequently, I suspect that the mishandling will get worse.

It's a fairly common lining for coffins that you're gonna either transport internationally or put in mausoleums. It keeps the body preserved for longer and takes about 100 years to break down.

Why zinc?

I can't not read this as "expensive paypal funeral".

Yep, and there's no way Musk, Trump, and Putin aren't trying to rig that vote. A Papal blessing would go a long way to speeding up their march.

Oh, it wasn't a joke, I was just saying it in a humorous manner.

You joke but there is a genuine possibility that the Vatican might elect someone who is more conservative, if not very so. The Vatican under Francis had been the most progressive it had been in decades. And it ruffled the feathers of many conservative clergies.

He even opted out of the traditional, expensive papal funeral and requested to just be laid in state and then buried in a wooden coffin lined with zinc.

Well, now it's time to swing to an even Nazier Nazi.

They are priests, they are all the same, no matter the cult or the specific affiliation (Jesuit in this case):

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-paedophile-priests-children-god-vatican-b2336786.html

I believe the pope met with the UK PM and one other dignitary the previous day, so he wasn't denying all visits.

Edit: ... and he did meet with Vance the next day.

vance liz truss'd the pope

We should spread the news that Vance killed him!

Honestly, it's not even hat far fetched. He probably denied visits because he was in bad health, yet Americans probably pushed to meet anyway

I would imagine they have some beautiful, world class couches in the Vatican. I can only imagine what the Pope walked in on!

Well done! As Martin Luther King Jr said:

“Love cannot drive out pedantry, only more pedantry can do that”

I don't think they did. In the bible, Jesus died Friday afternoon and rose Sunday morning. That's pretty close to two days- just over a day and a half, depending on when God yoinked his son's spirit.

The tradition took place over three days, but we'll know if he's a'risin' by the day and a half mark.

You literally missed the right number by one.

Mustered up that last goodbye to the people

Hologram technology really has come a long way

He made an appearance at Easter mass yesterday.

Did they do an Easter at Bernies?

Definitely. This potentially changes the structure of the Church which impacts every country in which it operates.

1.3 billion followers in 160+ countries.

One would even suggest this is world news.

He condemned the Russian aggression on multiple occasions.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-pope-francis-religion-moscow-8daccc2a83b24a94cff36f3b2a45dc4d

Quick search shows he did condem it.

That's fair. I have fallen for fake news myself a few times too.

That's what I get for getting my news from Lemmy memes.

Updated my comment

On Saturday April 19th he met with Pietro Parolin. This was framed as a snub. On Sunday 20th he met with Francis.

I mean... he did meet Vance. I don't know why there was lies being spread around about that. All you have to do is do a quick little search and you'll get pics from several angles of the pope and Vance chatting.

I will say, though, that the pope looked rough, so it isn't super surprising that he passed shortly after.

“I know you have not been feeling great but it’s good to see you in better health,” Mr. Vance told the pope, according to video footage of the visit

52

He said a lot. Did the opposite and continued the church’s status quo, you’re a fool if you think his pro lgbt talk was sincere, actions speak louder than words

Proof of things "A" is not proof of things "B"

"I don't think it's a stretch" and "they have a PR department" are not "evidence".

But they do have a pr department. The holy see is a political organization. They are an internationally recognized government with diplomatic relationships. While not a member state of the UN they are permanent observers and influence decision making on a worldwide scale, and it's not a secret that the church, which is run by the same person as the holy see (the Pope) has had its fair share of controversy.

I don't think it's a stretch to think the holy see spends time and effort in order to make their appearance, and the appearance of the church, look better.

This comment proves the church’s PR experiment worked. The lies worked. He wasn’t progressive, he was a hard conservative,

This phrase, right here, sounds like it came from a conspiracy theorist. Because that's exactly how conspiracy theorists rationalize things. Anything that counters my belief is "lies" and it's just a "PR experiment". It can't possibly be that the pope is, like most people, complex with varied beliefs and potentially even contradictory beliefs.

No. It's "lies from a PR department". 🙄

I mean, the Catholic Church is a political organization that has global reach, I don't think it's a wild conspiracy that they carefully consider their appearance.

lol we have proof of these people causing genocides and raping children but sure that’s far fetched

You win the award for funniest spelling pedantry of the month.

>homophonic

I think he was the first Pope Francis. But even if he were the second, that wouldn’t make him a homophone.

I guess all popes are homophonic in some languages, like in Spanish “la papa” is potato and “el papa” is pope.

Did you even see the earlier Popes? He did everything you say and yet this guy was liberal by every definition compared to the guy he replaced. Benedict was nasty and he knew it.

This comment proves the church’s PR experiment worked.

Conspiracy theorists are so weird... Like do you imagine a smokey room with the pope and a group of cardinals talking about how they want to represent the church in a completely opposite way to how they want it to be? Or is there a "shadow church" that controls it all and the pope is unaware?

Which marvel movie best reflects the situation do you think?

Calling out the the admin of a homophobic cult and pointing out their homophobic slurs is "trolling"

You are definitely in good faith for accusing people of being russian trolls in a pope thread...

Even the "best" individuals in the catholic church are still the members of a homophobic and misogynist cult persuading people to believe that ghosts are real. catholic church bending and changing its own sacred holy laws as it suit them is more proof of their bullshits.

Then start by the first line priests.

Those can be some of the worst individuals in the church, and some of the best, at the same time.

There are incredibly forward thinking, humanist and humane individuals acting as local parish priests, individuals that entered the ranks for personal calling and devotion, doing their best to push back on backwards thought and belief on "pious" communities. Those should garner wide support, when it is the exact opposite that happens, with usually the most reprobate and closed minded individuals being seen as "good" priest and thus rising in the ranks, to keep the status quo, one generation after the other.

Institutions are made of people. That man did little but achieved something to move the creed in a better direction. Most just tend to small affairs or outright go for even more dogmatic understandings of outdated subjects, which by itself drives away more people.

Now that I think about it, as reading or being knowledgeable of what any "holy" book holds is the best way to create atheists, maybe those are doing the best job.

You expect dogma to be nullified with a snap of finger?

I expect homophobic cult leaders to be called out for what they are and not praised or defended

You are hard pressed to be more of an atheist than I am.

You expect dogma to be nullified with a snap of finger? Even more when that same dogma is taken from the book on which the creed is built upon?

As if people require any sort of excuse to shun and persecute those who are different.

I find it more important countries to codify into law the right for anyone, regardless gender or sexual orientation, to enjoy the same rights, *including marriage* if so they choose but like it or not, a man forcing that small change into a monolithic, organized, religion is something to be recognized.

He did get a lot of things right:

Pope Francis says Trump 'is not a Christian,' Trump responds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnv6tIRW86A

He's the internally appointed CEO of a cult persuading people to believe that ghosts are real. The blessing of same-sex couples is a stunt the catholic church pulled to save face in 21st century, their different treatment of homosexual couples still speak loud about their cult homophobia.

They took action after there was a public backlash. Do you know what the context of the original comment is?

https://www.bishop-accountability.org/2021/07/a-teen-was-accused-of-abuse-inside-vatican-city-powerful-church-figures-helped-him-become-a-priest/

“As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,” tweeted Barros’s most vocal accuser, **Juan Carlos Cruz**. “These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.”

Wasn't this then 6 months later:

Pope Francis begins purge at Chilean church over sex abuse scandal

**Francis realized he had misjudged the Chilean situation after meeting with Cruz** and reading the 2,300-page report compiled by two leading Vatican investigators about the depth of Chile’s scandal, which has devastated the credibility of the church in a once overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country in the pope’s native Latin America.

“A new day has begun in Chile’s Catholic Church!” tweeted Juan Carlos Cruz, the abuse survivor who denounced Barros for years and pressed for the Vatican to take action.

“I’m thrilled for all those who have fought to see this day,” he said. “The band of delinquent bishops … begins to disintegrate today.”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/pope-francis-begins-purge-at-chilean-church-over-sex-abuse-scandal

https://apnews.com/article/33b208ef4bc84576a503b059629607db

Sounds like you could maybe... forgive him... for making a mistake while attempting to cleanup the worst mess in modern catholic history?

But I'm not a catholic or religious at all

Francis was known as a liberal reformer, making headlines across the globe by permitting the blessing of same-sex couples and promoting global action on climate change.

He was also known as the ceo of a homophobic and misogynist cult and for strolling around italy in a private helicopter.

He was outspoken about clergy abuse and called on the Catholic Church to “act decisively” against paedophile priests just months after his 2013 appointment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/19/pope-francis-victims-church-sexual-abuse-slander-chile

Probably because one is founded on evidence and the other one is founded on a made up concept by the institution in question.

How does your sentiment differ from someone who would say:

>The ~~catholic church~~ LGBT is indeed a ~~homophobic~~ sinful cult that condemns ~~homophobia as a sins for which you get punished in hell~~ religion as being a homophobic cult, having million of followers or being popular doesn’t change the fact.

You take the broadest brush and just stroke over everything, instead of being willing to accept any nuance.

The catholic church is indeed a homophobic cult that condemns homophobia as a sins for which you get punished in hell, having million of followers or being popular doesn't change the fact. Scientology has millions of followers are we going to give them any credibility because of that?

If your concept of a religious institution that has more than a billion people listening to it is reduced to "homophobic cult", how does that differ from being part of a "bigoted cult" because you condemn people based on your simplistic understanding of their religion?

The homophobic slurs should also be a reminder that the catholic church is a homophobic cult.

Isn't this 'whataboutism'?

I have terrible news for you if you think using a homophonic slur is as bad as anything the previous popes and cardinals have been doing.

Francis was known as a liberal reformer, making headlines across the globe by permitting the blessing of same-sex couples and promoting global action on climate change.

Francis worked as a janitor and a chemical technician in the food-processing industry before entering the seminary.

He was outspoken about clergy abuse and called on the Catholic Church to "act decisively" against paedophile priests just months after his 2013 appointment.

This was tbe same man that said being homosexual isn't a crime and doesn't merit persecution for it, albeit by the catholic creed being a sin.

An insult is only as long someone allows it to be.

Downvote away.

Of course the worst pro-russia troll would also troll against catholicism, why am I surprised

You've really got to boil that frog for a while

Of course it doesn’t _necessarily_ bring wisdom, agreed,

Also agree with _considering_ life experience though

I feel like anyone who still believes that crap that age necessarily brings wisdom needs to be prevented from making any political decisions at any cost.

I mean, I think they're also choosing old people to be pope because it's a "for life" thing. Plus the whole wisdom aspect and shit since it's religion

That’s why they keep doing it, same thing in politics. Old people holding back progress in a desperate attempt to grasp onto power just a bit longer.

If politics is anything to take a pattern from, things will get slightly better, but those moments of hope are followed by gigantic steps backwards.

Doesn't help they pick the oldest guys in the room to become the pope.