u/MudMan — MudMan

There are definitely ways to send backwards compatible data when required and separately support additional features in a new iteration of an API. This wouldn't be in the top 10 backwards compatibility challenges MS has figured out.

But in any case, I don't care if they call it XInput2 or Game Input. I just need it to support all controller features in all games. It's a bit hard to tell whether Game Input will ever do that, but so far it seems more concerned with acting as a layer to explicitly support a bunch of different hardware, each with its own standards, than a XInput replacement for controllers. There doesn't seem to be a concept for a "Game Input controller" there at all, actually, just supported controllers you can listen for regardless of what they're sending through.

I guess over time if they stick with it and it does end up working as a Steam Input-style intermediary layer that just recognizes anything you'd just ship controllers that match whatever format with gyro support and Game Input-enabled games would just pick them up fine more or less universally, but that doesn't seem to be what it does *right now*, or at least not something that either games or manufacturers are relying upon.

Anyway, this was interesting and informative, but I think I'm good now. I definitely don't want to have a conversation formatted as an argument in which nobody is disagreeing with anybody else. Those are exhausting.

That's interesting, but considering this note:

We recommend the GameInput API for all new code, regardless of the target platform, because it provides support across all Microsoft platforms (including earlier versions of Windows) and provides superior performance versus legacy APIs.

For games developed on the GDK for Xbox One, GameInput is the only input API

I'm really not sure this would do what we both want it to do. If everybody has had a GameInput version of their controller support since last-gen and we're still getting limited to the XInput feature set I don't think it sorts out gyro-on-Xinput at all. I am not familiar with the behind the scenes of how modern engine controller code is handled, but this sounds like maybe it's how games with native PS controller support are doing that, but not necessarily a new standard that will allow the default XInput PC setting of new controllers to pass gyro input to games detecting them as an XInput device. I think it's more like MS's answer to Steam Input as an additional layer between the games and the hardware, regardless of what the hardware is using.

It does show that all the tools are in place. MS has control over all the involved APIs. They could expand the Xbox controller API feature set tomorrow, whether or not they add the hardware feature to their base controller model. They just... don't. And Steam could deploy a Steam-independent Steam Input driver or software to just take over all controller support on a dedicated full-feature OS layer, but they also don't (on either Windows or Linux, as far as I can tell).

Honestly, there are enough workarounds (add games as non-Steam games, use Switch modes and so on), I just bump against the edge cases of it often because I'm both a controller and handheld nerd, so I'm stuck with a GPD Win handheld that insists on injecting their internal gyro as mouse inputs, which confuses the hell out of half the games, along with a bunch of GameSir and Gullikit controllers that do weird things with gyro, like injecting it at the firmware level instead of passing it to the OS. And I mess around with enough emulators to also end up with "oh, this was on DI mode when I booted RetroArch, so now all my buttons are in the wrong places until I quit". It's only dumb for like ten of us... but man, is it dumb.

Yes, I'm aware, that's why I'm calling out it's weird that XInput doesn't support gyro, because we're a long way away of it being just based on Xbox controller support and a whole bunch of other controllers with a whole bunch of other features now go through it. If MS doesn't want to add gyro that's up to them, but Windows supporting it natively is way overdue. Of course at that point older controllers would probably need a firmware update, but hey, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

In practice the situation we're having is games are defaulting to Xinput and relying on Steam Input as an intermediate layer for additional features, so the end result is that gyro is... not NOT supported, but often not acknowledged at all, so you end up with a bunch of situations where you have to config gyro manually per game as a bit of a Steam-level hack, and then your controller is all wonky anywhere other than Steam because the way Switch/DI/PS input modes get picked up in non-Steam stuff can be weird.

And it gets worse in handhelds where you're absolutely at the mercy of how the manufacturer decided to set up their controller and gyro support, and sometimes need to do a lot of weird stuff to pass it on outside of Steam.

It's the jankiest part of controller set up left on PC gaming, and it's all down to this weird "mom and dad aren't talking" dance where MS keeps pretending PC controllers are fundamentally Xbox controllers at the XInput layer and Steam is the de facto curator of the controller support but has no interest (and to be frank no expectation or need) to have their controller layer work outside their launcher.

It's hard to fault Steam's controller layer, but I really wish they finally found a way to parse gyro data from third party controllers without having to run them on Switch mode. That goes for Microsoft and their own drivers. At this point it's weird to keep pretending the Windows controller APIs are supposed to work on their first party Xbox controllers only.

I'm almost entirely sure that PS4 and XOne controllers did get upgrades at some points. Definitely Switch 1 ones, which matters or not depending on how you split the gens. There were definitely revisions in older controllers, though. Some were labeled and had obvious new features, some were quieter. And PC-side drivers got updates all the time, obviously.

Also, your current gen controller will also keep working indefinitely without an update. In this case Valve is annoyed about a particular dependency where THEY need the upgrade to happen for a feature compatibility thing, but the controller proper will work if you plug it in.

I mean... I own both a LCD and an OLED Deck.

I would absolutely not use it as a computer without a dock and I certainly wouldn't use it as a media player.

Other handhelds maaaaybe. The Legion Go has a stand and detachable controllers, so it could be a thing if it didn't have the worst speakers ever devised by a human being. The GPD Win 4, the GPD Win Mini, the Ayaneo Slide and the Aya Flip all have some semblance of a keyboard, so you can get away with some stuff you can't on the Deck or the Ally. I don't think they make sense as a main computing device for the money, though, as they don't have even the Deck's low entry point as an excuse.

FWIW, the optical nub on the Win 4 is the best pointer device in any of these, and even with that and the physical keyboard I still wouldn't use it to replace a laptop for media consumption if given the option. If I had a single device I could pick up I would sooner look into the ASUS Flow line of convertibles than into any current handheld, although you can certainly get a much cheaper all-rounder laptop than that.

Cool, so you really really wanted a handheld.

Which is fine. Go nuts. Love me a handheld.

But "the best all rounder" it definitely is not. There is a big difference between needing a dock, a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse versus just a mouse for fundamentally the same experience. If you're into the ergonomics of a separate monitor then you're looking for something else than "an all rounder", you're looking for a desktop replacement specifically. That's not the same thing. And then I'd say the Deck still wouldn't be how I fix that problem, honestly.

Also, FWIW, I don't think the Deck is particularly good at anything that is not gaming. The 800p screen is not good enough for media consumption, especially given that the thing has no easy way to handle it other than gripping it with both hands. No stand, no easy way to one-hand it, tiny screen... Yeah, not how you want to watch a movie. Especially not on the LCD model, which is the only one under 500.

I agree that it's a good cheap PC handheld. I don't think it's anything but that, though. If it's the only device you can afford I genuinely don't think it makes much sense, and in almost every other circumstance either spending more on a better desktop/laptop or splitting your budget between a cheaper work PC and a Deck is a better solution.

I think if you're considering a Deck or a console it's a different conversation, but as your main computing device? Yeah, no, not a recommendation from me at all.

That's a bad use case, honestly. I mean, sure, you can do it, but... why?

The deck starts at 400 bucks (yeah, I know there's a sale now, that's not the base price). But that SKU comes with only 256 Gigs of storage and 16 gigs of RAM. You need a keyboard, mouse, monitor and dock to use it as a desktop PC, and now... well, it's a desktop PC, you can't move that set up with you to do anything other than play games.

What you want is... you know, a laptop. If you want some gaming ASUS will throw in a dedicated GPU for the price of all that loose hardware. And, you know, your keyboard and monitor can go in your backpack instead of being locked to a desk.

It's fine if you really really want a handheld and your other tasks are a secondary concern, but if you can only afford one cheap device and you want an all-rounder to do both desktop replacement and on-the-go entertainment laptops still make the most sense.

You went for an Intel handheld? I salute you, sir, that's a deep cut.

As one of the five people on the planet who own an Intel GPU I firmly believe we are in a very exclusive club that will one day do wonders for hardware archaeology.

Sure. Maybe? The Deck isn't that expensive, and despite being relatively limited runs it definitely has some benefits from scale. For one it's a custom APU, so you have to assume there's a specific deal with AMD.

Valve is certainly a first party that benefits from software sales primarily, so it makes sense for them to go to some lengths to invest in bringing people over, but I'm not sure that they are actively subsidizing the Deck, the price seems pretty reasonable. I'm sure they don't make a ton of money from it, though, so they definitely get to thin those margins up a LOT compared with the pure hardware manufacturers, let alone with the tiny companies making handhelds one at a time.

I choose to read that as a genuine compliment.

And yeah, man, these weird devices are being sold to weird people who like them for what they are. Which also means when the next weird thing comes out those weirdos are likely to get upsold and resell older stuff. All of these things are going to be fantastic eBay haul Youtube videos from retro hardware people in the 2070s, assuming we avoid going full Mad Max Idiocracy that long.

I find this train of thought weird, because these are all niche devices.

It's strange to hear that there's no demographic for boutique handhelds at the same time any mention that the Switch sold an order of magnitude more than the Deck gets a dozen responses that the Deck is "experimental" or "a first try" or "not competing directly".

And hey, all that's true. The Deck will never move 150 million consoles or sell 5 million in a week. There's value in limited run hardware that does things that aren't mainstream propositions alongside the "let's get every kid to get one of these from their grandma" devices.

This is just... not true?

The Deck ranges from 420 to 680. The Legion Go S is 520, right in the middle of that. The Z1 Extreme ROG Ally is 670, right in line with the top of the line Deck (and noticeably more powerful). The Switch 2 is 470, on the cheaper side and also a fair bit beefier.

This article is arguing that having next-gen chips in boutique devices for 1K is a) a new development, and b) a bad thing. It is neither.

Before the Deck went mass market with PC handhelds they would routinely be a lot more expensive. The original Ayaneo was between 800 and 900 in 2021. The Pro model went up to 1200.

I *want* those things to exist. I want GPD to cram a Strix Halo into a handheld with a removable battery. I want Ayaneo to build a dual screen clamshell. I want Odin to slap a Xbox controller around an iPad. I want them to make a dumb console that spits out its buttons so you can flip them around. I want vertical handhelds. All that kooky weirdness is experimenting with new form factors and parts in ways that will move the segment forward. Without Ayaneo, Odin or GPD being dumb enough to cram a laptop into a handheld there'd be no Steam Deck in the first place.

Let the people who like weird hardware dump a grand or two into those weird things and that's how you eventually get a comfortably priced for-the-rest-of-us device from Valve or Asus that takes the ideas from those that work.

Also day one on GOG, for anybody interested.

The OLED has a bunch of upgrades over the base model that aren't obvious. It's really worth the splurge.

Other than that, don't get too caught up in the hyperbole and expect to play things mostly up to the PS3/360 generation AAA and indies. Newer games will run sometimes but it's often not worth the hassle. There are exceptions, particularly in games that have specific issues in other platforms, but... you know, it's a 3 year old handheld, keep your expectations in check.

OK, let me fix that for you permanently.

This is Retroachievements.org.

Not only does it do what it says on the tin, but it's, for my money, the best discoverability tool out there for old games. The most obvious way to use it for that is to check the new games they've added achievements to, but they also have book club-style events (they're revisiting F1 games this month to go with the movie currently in theatres), challenges, seasonal achievements, leaderboards and all sorts of the types of metagaming stats tools you've seen in modern platforms to point you in the rigth direction.

You can start by selecting "all games" and sorting them all by players to see what's popular. Or, hell, reverse sort by players and see what weird crap is in there. Once you start down that rabbit hole you're more likely to have too much in your retro backlog than you are to ask this question again.

So just to help me wrap my head around it... where would that AI and smart software be hosted, then?

Right. Seems like... you know, less of a big deal than both supporters and detractors further down this thread are making it out to be, then.

Wait, what happened before when you had sex with someone without their consent?

Was there an intermediate thing, or... how did that work?

A bit more than exit polls now. The official fast count gives him more than half of the overall vote, so that should be it.