‘I don’t date at all now’: one woman’s journey into the darkest corners of the manosphere

Fair enough. It happens to us all.

Yeah, I was being lazy and didn't read the article :-|

Sorry.

I'm a man and I am going to speak out against this. Sharing intimate photos without consent is disgusting

If this is information on forums, couldn't posts calling Users behavior be removed and user banned?

Also, men that aren't up to that behavior probably aren't coming across these areas in the first place.

I think it's odd that you left out the part explaining what these men aren't getting called out by their peers for.

>These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.”

Men who are doxxing and sharing revenge porn of women is not the same thing as men "looking to fuck" a woman. This is sick sociopathic behavior. It's weird that you can't tell the difference.

That sentence was talking about revenge porn and doxxing. Men wouldn't be "looking to fuck" someone they're sharing revenge porn of.

At the root it's a very difficult topic to address, let me change my language a little to avoid the politics implied by the room.

When you generalise a negative trait to a particular gender, you are making a sexist and hateful comment. The "emotional woman" and the "deceitful gold digger", the "violent man" and the "potential rapist" - the former would lead to a talk with HR, the latter leads to open agreement and often accolade.

The argument made for this discrepancy is that it is redressing the systemic sexism built into our society, but I think that it has ceased to do so and us now fuelling the misogyny more than it is addressing it.

There is a need to redress societal imbalance that disadvantages women - however hatred only breeds more hatred. The path currently taken is wrong, and history will show that to be true.

Trusting a wikipedia link to make your point for you doesn't work any better on lemmy than it did on reddit. In case anyone is curious, a couple excerpts from wikipedia

In the Internet Age, users posting on manosphere internet forums such as 4chan and subreddits addressing men's rights activism have claimed that misandry is widespread, established in preferential treatment of women, and shown by discrimination against men.

[...]

Men's rights activists invoke the idea of misandry in warning against what they see as the advance of a female-dominated society. The idea of feminism as threatening towards men, encapsulated in the term **misandry**, forms a core part of the vocabulary of the manosphere and is used within the men's rights movement to counter feminist accusations of misogyny.

They aren't equivalent-but-gender-flipped terms anymore, because "misandry" has been hijacked by the incels as a dogwhistle and convenient catchall term to dismiss concerns exactly like what's in this thread. While I don't think HexesofVexes intended this, they're conflating the two terms to be equivalent in meaning which, when taken in context, just simply isn't true.

Except they're not at all the same, you understand that, right? Misogyny is build upon layers of social and systemic discrimination

I invite you to look into the term misandry some more:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry

I am an older guy and all my relationships were brief and so troublesome that being in a relationship seems far more troublesome than it is worth.

Yeah right now Lemmy is a niche appeal social media site with a minor technical barrier to entry, so it's basically the ideal environment for toxic users to spawn. World is getting better as more regular-human users are driven off reddit, and there's obviously blahaj and similar instances, but yeah it's pretty rough here. Lots of "Anyone who'd choose the bear over me is just an idiot, *I'd* never completely miss the point like a bear would" types.

This take is even more useless. A part of the idiotic flora of parasites that follows it around

If you imagine some kind of multi year "relationship education" instead of just sex ed where all kids at ~14 learn about pathological psychology and all the ways people can manipulate you or fuck you over I imagine it would be far less off a problem.

Well, that kind of supports my theory here.

It's shitty that there's not much you can do to actually intervene. Usually they don't come straight out and admit they're a misogynistic trashbag, it's just a strong vibe.

This just reminded me of the wonderful responses from these guys.

My sister dated a sociopath. He was a master manipulator and cheated on and with every woman he wanted. This afgan muslim wad the biggest hypocrit I ever met.

He preyed on young women. Especiaally the vulnerable ones who suffered from loneliness, insecurities and/or depression. His charms did not work as well on me, because I'm not attracted to men. He did not like me and tried to ridicule me, cross my boundaries and set up my sister against me. Tried to slut shame me and implying I slept around in engineering. Trust me... no amount of axe bodyspray combats the overfilled lecturing room in summer. You could feel and taste the smell of men when entering. I have sensed every pheromone a man can produce, and none has a positive effect on me. And even if I did fuck every guy in engineering, what's his point? He believed in polygamy. If he gets to fondle an theatre of tits, I should be able to ride every dick I want (with consent ofc).

My best friend was a guy. And the sociopathic pig would tell him misogynistic bs. About how to play multiple women at a once. My friend did not tell me anything about what the swine said. After all, bro's before ho's. And I was apparently the ho rather than the bro.

Anyhow. My warnings weren't taken seriously, and 3 people I knew have had affairs with him. 2 of which were barely 19 and had a history of parental neglect and fear of abandonment.

Had my friend bothered to tell me, I may have had enough to convince my sister at least to cut ties with him. Instead, she become more and more miserable and doubtful of herself. Trying to break it off, but not being assertive enough to enforce it. Thank our crappy mother for that.

The pig also had a lawsuit against him for sexual msiconduct. He was a taxi driver and an incident had taken place where two women left his cab and hit the front of his car with a heel. Leaving a dent. Or so the story went. His brother lost his medical licience because there were too many sexual harassment claims against him in his dental practice. His family is known for misogyny. Fucker lied about his name because of it and refused to introduce her to his family. Reason he gave had to do with his muslim backround, but in reality, he was already engaged to another woman.

I hope she is okay. I doubt it though.

My sister recovered from the ordeal. Woman no. 3 cut ties with us and we don't know what happened. We assume she did so out if shame. Which isn't surprising because they all had an affair with the same guy. Fucking dumbass. Woman no. 2 was the most vulnerable, but is doing well now. Being disgusted with herself for how she acted.

I am no longer friends with the guy I used to hang out with almost daily. After he kept saying misogynistic bs and telling me he could rape me while I wouldn't be able to do defend myself.

Men cannot be counted on for snitching, even if someone's safety depends on it.

Emotionally, I want to agree with you, but lynching is almost always going to hit the wrong people, too. The well connected teacher/coach/advisor who likes to prey on girls is not going to be hit, but the black guy who happens to be at the wrong spot at the wrong time, and triggers all the "we must protect our women!1!" ?

What? That's not correct at all. The leading cause of death for women is heart disease, which accounts for approximately one in three female deaths each year. "Men" or any derivatives thereof on most statistical lists are below even common mosquitoes (malaria) as causes of death. A woman is more likely to be killed by their own kidneys than by a man.

Don't spread needless culture war scare bullshit.

Source: The goddamn CDC.

Thank you, that's a pretty fair assessment.

This was what I took away from his comment as well. His personal experience with physical abuse likely lead him to interpret "slapped upside the head" in a more visceral way than I think OP intended. The jump in 'rhetorical spiciness' tends to prime the reader a certain way. He expressed his doubt and confusion but only after bringing up a seemingly unrelated (and potentially bigoted) example.

Lemmy is such a friendly place...

I felt like I understood your original post, so I hope you're okay if I try to bridge the misunderstandings? If at any point I misunderstood, let me know.

----

>> They aren’t going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior.

Expecting men to beat the shit out of people doing the “wrong” things is also a really big problem and isn’t a solution either.

I feel like this boils down to: having men use physical violence to coerce other men into "proper" behavior isn't the solution. The scare-quotes around "wrong" imply the term being potentially misused.

>I remember in the late 80s when i was really young hearing about gay bashing as if it was a perfectly okay thing to group to and go do.

You note that groups used violence against gay people in the 80s, and that it was considered acceptable. I read this and the next sentence as being an example, provided to support your first sentence.

>I remember people talking about Freddie Mercury coming out as gay and not feeling comfortable asking why that is a problem for fear of being targeted myself.

The fear of violence was such a severe deterrent, that even questioning why being gay was "wrong" could have led the group to assume you were gay and thus become violent against you.

>I don’t have any answers

Although you don't believe in corporal punishment, you don't know what the answer *would* be. (Which is totally fair, IMO.)

----

Is that the gist of what you meant?

If so, I suspect people lost track of your point around the term "gay bashing." Most people these days probably associate that term with someone speaking poorly of gay people, which sucks, but is relatively tame compared to what I thought you meant - which was, groups that went around *literally bashing,* as in physically attacking, gay people. (Which was, and still is in some places, an absolutely real thing.) It's possible that this misunderstanding derailed the rest of your comment, leading readers away from your point.

Nobody understands a thing you're saying, I think you don't grasp the concept of "context" like so many internet drones. I'm blocking you now, have a good day

This sentiment is why i commented. It does need to be pushed back against. Thank you

Redpill, incel, gender-normative bullshit is *violence.* It seeks to hurt men by forcing them into the mold of "masculinity" (and defines that masculinity, in some places, in a *very* toxic fashion) and we all know how it hurts women.

It needs to be fought back, and as furiously as fascism.

Point taken. Looks like the guy is standing pat with his full blown alternate reality narraive. And he's still gotten more upvotes inspite of being so unabashedly in bad faith.

Ah well I wish mods would have nuked the whole comment chain.

I say let it stand as a testament.

I know you're joking around, but I'll take advantage of the moment to rant on a tangent for a bit. I legit saw this attitude spreading through the moderator space on reddit a decade ago, as they started getting influenced by users to let slide more and more horrible takes so that "the community can judge for themselves" as tender, shut-in lads and lasses who were trying to manage our largest discussion forums without pay were suddenly being bombarded from all sides by people trying to subvert the subreddits and control them for their own agendas.

And largely, it worked. Many, many times I've seen subreddits and forums on other sites fall because the mods got compromised, the other mods got too burned out or emotional to keep doing their tasks, and as a result the conversations started allowing more and more incel-bait, tired tropes of persecution and misogyny, foulmouthed, delusional teenagers who have *never* left their houses suddenly making profound statements about the state of gender dynamics, and a whole ARMY of foreigners pretending to be normal Americans or Europeans on both sides of every argument, just screaming their nonsense louder and louder until the only users left were the ones who agreed with the delusion. I wish people understood that some of the most famous horrible subreddits and sites started as jokes and were gradually co-opted and hijacked to become unironic hate-spaces.

This was the plan all across the internet and it worked. We are all so tired of every argument and issue that most people don't engage anymore. We don't even *try* to correct anyone because we assume either other users know better, or will sort it out for us, or who cares anyway, what's even real? Just tune out, keep scrolling.

So now I say, *no*. We need to be far less tolerant of intolerance, we need to burn them out of their nests and dens. Reddit didn't go nearly far enough with banning the incel subs, they should have banned incel *ideology*, they should have banned redpill *rhetoric* entirely. I once would have balked at that kind of "censorship" but I'm now watching my nation dissolve under the stupidest movement ever created and I'm somewhere between shaking with rage and shaking with exhaustion.

I say let it stand as a testament. Incels bring out the big guns when you get too close to reality. I've noticed this pattern over the years.

The propaganda is something to behold. This is the kind of thing young men are being bombarded with.

Care to explain how I'm unhinged?

Speaking of poor reading skills, im specifically referring to physical abuse as a form or deterrent.

Maybe you havent experienced physical abuse, but i have.

Make people feel bad about who they are through intimidation and violence. It's not okay unless you are "over if there good ones"

"It's not literal!"

Cool cool cool

Meanwhile concentration camps are in vogue

A rapist and convicted felon is the POTUS

And Andrew Tate is the new young mans hero.

Yeah im so unhinged

beat the shit out of people

It's not literal. You seriously don't know what social conditioning is???

gay bashing

I have no clue how you derived homophobia from this.

This is either a troll or poor reading comprehension.

edit: I just saw your other replies. You're being deliberately obtuse to derail the thread.

In the 80s and 90s we always called our friends gay but to me it was just friendly ribbing.

One ex friend we did beat the fuck out of for hitting his girlfriend.

This is unhinged and nonsensical, either you have poor English reading comprehension or this is a troll post. I'll let mods decide.

>They aren't going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior.

Expecting men to beat the shit out of people doing the "wrong" things is also a really big problem and isn't a solution either.

I remember in the late 80s when i was really young hearing about gay bashing as if it was a perfectly okay thing to group to and go do.

I remember people talking about Freddie Mercury coming out as gay and not feeling comfortable asking why that is a problem for fear of being targeted myself.

I don't have any answers

The internet is raising them. They aren't going outside and saying these things where at least one man would smack him upside the head in order to correct bad behavior. They aren't going outside and trying this shit on women who will reject their bad behaviors. Or worse running to legal trouble for harassing or assaulting women. Whereby it used to be the guy would self reflect and realize he's doing it wrong.

The internet is telling them stories about how these behaviors are what the "alpha" males are doing to successfully get all the women. What is the bullshit stat? Like 1% of top men get 99% of women or some stupid shit.

The internet lies to them, painting a dark twisted world. And then these guys go out to the real world to treat women in the way they think the world is some kind of dark world. They get extreme negative experiences. Which to them proves that the internet was right about everything.

Yeah, I tend to think that men who'd want dating women would be easier would form an organization and lynch those fucks.

it's so easy.

It's insane to me that the greatest threat to women is dating men

Yet men are the leading cause of death for women. You're correct, it is absolutely insane, but until those types of men can sort out their fragile masculinity problems here we are unfortunately.

Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.

The cause of and consequences of The Man-o-Sphere in a nutshell. People get drawn in by the promise of gamified easy answers to relationships (via PUA community, evangelist trad-life influencers, and other self-help gurus). But it's a bait-and-switch, with "advice" drifting from "how to find an easy relationship" into "why women are awful and you should hate them."

I mean, if you went to 4chan you could presumably call out more, but it'd be kind of like yelling into a hurricane. Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.

IRL bigots tend to hide their shit from non-target non-bigots.

If it makes you feel any better, I can ping you next time I encounter misogyny on Lemmy? It's far less toxic than a lot of online places, but it's definitely got corners where offensive takes get upvoted.

sure! let's start:

1. buy guns.

2. don't be an idiot.

3. toughen up, buttercup.

i have a confidence that most of you would be jealous of. but yes, maybe i do suck. there is such a thing as a happy middle ground. i strive for that and, IRL, i usually do a pretty good job of it. here though? i'm going to give most of you a hard time because you deserve it. yall need to learn to deal with adversity.

we are not living in a utopia. we probably won't, but if you want one for the people that come after us, you need to toughen up.

people are too coddled in online leftist spaces. it leads to misinformation, apathy, and a general pacifism that will not solve anything.

If all you do is call people losers without offering the tiniest bit of constructive advice people are going to (rightly) downvote you and reply with mean comments and you won't get any closer to your stated goals of teaching them to "overcome adversity" or whatever.

Try adding constructive advice along with the put downs, it should help

Maybe you suck too?

You seem very humble, after all.

Well, I applaud your intellectual honesty, at least, even if I question your priorities.

my online persona is very much an asshole. i think most people suck and i'm not trying to make any friends. i have plenty IRL, and most of them think very highly of me.

You just kind of come across as a dick in a different way here.

But at that point, why get caught up in the semantics of the statement? Why not just simply address the concern they are raising? They aren't being literal, they don't mean "every single man" and getting defensive when they aren't talking about you won't help.

That is not my suggestion at all. When I can help, I do. When I can say something, I do. Still, we should not overgeneralize. Everybody is an individual and should be treated as such.

a rational one.

would you prefer we continue to deplete the world's resources to build our magnificent dystopia and leave a hellscape in our wake?

> i hope i live to see a 50% decrease in human population

What kind of person are you?


This seems to be a pretty narrow view point. They're not asking you to police other actions, but rather voice your disapproval when you see it. Nobody can control the actions of others, but it is also undeniable that men are more likely to listen to other men. To see something, and sit idly by, is comparable to supporting the action. If you do not at minimum vocalize your discontent, then you are fine with it being done around you.

Your current suggestion is that a minority of men harass 50% of the population with no societal repercussions? When that 50% that's being harassed is like "Hey, we need help from the other 49% to bring about a societal change" your first response is to call them a bigot? In order to substantially change the harassment being done, everyone needs to step up.

i hope i live to see a 50% decrease in human population, so i'm 100% with her.

Yeah, I'll give you that one.

Not when the ideologies in question are anti-human it's not

>bring back McCarthyism

Fuck outta here with that authoritarian bullshit. You truly want to hold millions of people responsible for falling victim to Zuck getting high off Cambridge Analytica and globalizing the flood-gates of shit spewing? Content serving algorithms have torn communities apart, promoted violence and hate *world-wide* for most of the past 20 years. That's plenty of time for 're-education' and here we are reaping the benefits.

Hurt people hurt people. Human billionaires hurt society. Generational wealth oppressing generational trauma. Authoritarianism leads to the same power imbalance, and purging ideologies is anti-human.

Then I've got some bad news for you about Putin, too.

Man these numbers are horrific we need to bring back McCarthyism but for these people

Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Andrew Tate

Maybe my opinion is influenced by my geographic position. I never would have imagined that many people of my generation support him.

Where I live, saying you like Andrew Tate would be like saying you support Putin, maybe worse.

Then their kid goes back to school the next day and continues to inflict a lifes with of trauma on their peers.

A few old-fashioned morons go a parent-teacher meeting and scream "*We never had all this psychotherapy bullshit when I was a kid!*" And everyone mummers to each other that yeah, we can't impose our reason-based evaluation of reality on someone else's ignorance, that wouldn't be *American!*

This shit is why I think regular therapy sessions should be a mandatory part of high school for everyone. Kids need better tools to deal with the shit they're going through.

I get called a conspiracist for linking the actual reports and investigations into this, but this was by design.

Almost every authoritarian/fascist uprising on record has started with the indoctrination and isolation of young, sexually insecure, lonely men who feel disenfranchised with the system because they're depressed, horny and have mixed-up ideas how to be liked by others. It's incredibly easy to peel off a massive chunk of this population and get them to start blaming the government, society broadly, science, knowledge, literally anything but their own need to improve their social skills and gain some emotional intelligence.

These are our dumbest, angriest, loudest men, and thus become the major influencing factor on their peers, online and off. They set the tone and everyone else just kind of goes along with it, or leaves them to grow and gain power in peace.

i did. saw it in 2016 and had a hunch before that.

the only thing that shocks me anymore is how naive most of you are.

Yeah, these days I'm thinking it might actually be a double digit percentage that's onboard. The manosphere has enough reach to affect elections now, which I *did not* see coming.

because most men aren’t rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.

It's much muddier than that. Most cases of rape are someone the victim trusted. And most of those cases don't ever get reported to authorities. So there are many men may have taken advantage of a woman, and that woman see's him as an abuser, but nearly nobody in that mans life even knows about this. The victim may stay silent for any number of reasons. There are almost definitely cases like that involving men you know, but are unaware of what they did. As for the solution to these cases? Societal norms need to change. Consent needs to be required every time no matter what. There should never be pressure for sex, and peers should not encourage pressuring a woman into sex. Instead, the man will say the person stepping in is "cock blocking" when in reality they're defending someone who doesn't want to have sex with them. Men will back up other men in an attempt to help their bro "get their dick wet". They will get women drunk in hopes they will have reduced inhibitions, or perhaps so drunk they don't even remember the night. This is not as simple as "lock up the bad guys" when very few cases of rape involve being snatched up off the street.

When I said it’s “bound to pop up” I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned.

Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were saying. I do still disagree that groups like that are bound to pop up, at least not as much as they are right now. I think womanizing groups are far more common than *dedicated* racist groups online. Racism has taken a massive downward trend over the last hundred years. Of course, it is not fixed, very far from it. But I also think it is undeniable that racism is *less* of a problem than it was 50 years ago. That is the kind of societal change we want. If the internet were around 50 years ago, the insane number of group chats dedicated to racism would have been far larger than they are now. Bringing awareness to these issues, and especially men standing up to other men, is what will help bring a decline to the number of vocal sexist pigs and their echo chambers.

But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.

Thats's most certainly accurate, since in the US, 1 in 5 women have been raped over the course of their lives.

So, Sexual harassment would be far more likely. I'd guess, 4 in 5 women, if not 5 outta 5.

When I said it's "bound to pop up" I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned. I don't disagree that there are systemic problems but I think that they were focusing on a specific and small subset of a larger problem.

I might be wrong about this, correct me if that's so. but because most men aren't rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.

I think it is more widespread than you imagine. If admiration for Andrew Tate is an indicator of seriously misogynistic attitudes, then the statistics (for the UK) are quite shocking:

>**Nearly a quarter (23%) of 15-16-year-old boys have a positive view of Andrew Tate** compared to only 10% of girls at this age.

>

>Furthermore, **one-third of dads (32%) view Andrew Tate favourably** compared to 10% of mums. This positive view is even higher among young dads: **52% of 25-34-year-old dads** compared to 19% of mums.

>

>Additionally, 49% of 25-34-year-old dads believe their child has a positive view of Andrew Tate.

Source: https://www.internetmatters.org/hub/research/research-into-online-misogyny-and-image-based-abuse/

99% of men are disgusted by this type of thing

wow. naive.

As a man, it's also reasonable to say this is nearly non existent among women. Does it happen? Of course. But not nearly to the scale it happens among men.

It's moreso a matter of semantics. If someone says "Men are disgusting", you don't have to take it literally. It's conveying the meaning that there is a large enough amount of men that are doing this that it is a massive problem in nearly every woman's life. The saying would be a bit less valid if it was so extremely prevalent. But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.

So sure, with as many people as there are, it's "bound to pop up" but saying it that way seems to undermine just how prevalent it is. And correcting a statement that expresses the sentiment that this is a large problem by saying "But not all men are bad" is counterproductive. They are talking about the systematic issue among men. You could instead respond with "Yea, we need systematic changes" or something along the lines that address the concern they are raising.

It's the same as everywhere, those who scream the loudest get heard

Social division as a result of people not socializing anymore has driven a massive wedge between the diverse and beautiful spectrum of people who used to find appreciation and joy in each others differences.

Now every time you meet someone with different feelings than yourself, the internet has trained you to feel attacked.

This is why we're all alone, we're afraid of being attacked, and somehow our definitions of what an attack is has been radically subverted.

Most young men and women choose not to date. "Choosing the bear" isn't limited to one gender. And yes, I understand it, at least partially. It's rough out there.

Your biggest problem is you are reading "not all men" as a literal. Not everything has to be taken literally. Language absolutely can work that way, and very often does. When a woman talks about the countless men that have harassed her, and she says "men disgust me" and your response to that is "not all men disgust you, right" then you have completely missed the point. She is conveying the hurt that has fell upon her by many men, and that is the part that should be addressed. Not the technicalities of who she is talking about exactly. And it is absolutely incorrect if your response to that was to call her a bigot or an objectively bad person.

Comparing the black race to sexist men is also a terrible comparison. Black people have historically been oppressed. There is countless literature on just the problems black men and women have faced in the last 50 years. The systematic issues with race are an entirely different beast, and not at all comparable to the issue with men.

Men have historically been the oppressors. There is no systematic oppression they're battling. They are the ones with the majority of the power. They are simply continuing to abuse those they either have power over, or feel they have power over.

So again, don't get hyperfixated on this "not all men" because even when people make a generalized statement, they are not talking about LITERALLY ALL MEN, they are talking about a problem they've experienced enough from one common group that they are able to widely complain about it. If you went day after day of constant cat calling, womanizing, discrimination, dick picks, mansplaining, and god knows what else women have to deal with, you might be saying things like that too. I don't know if it's a man thing, or if some people that take these things super literally have diagnosed or undiagnosed autism, or what ever else, but they (myself included at one point) seem to not be able to understand the fact that generalized statements aren't talking about everyone but a common issue they have.

I get it, you want them to say "Some men" or might even be fine with them saying "most men" but that isn't going to happen when someone is fed up with the treatment they've faced from men. They're fed up with the treatment they've faced their entire lives, and they're saying something about it. That is not bigotry. Period.

Again, if we're going to include any single type of incident over the life of a person, and then start to discriminate on the common perpetrator, you end up with bigotry regardless of that incident Or intent.

Its not 'not all men' it's 'not even a third of men.' more black people as a percentage of total black people have assaulted someone than the percentage of men that have sexually assaulted someone, so we should look into profiling black people for violence and work to correct the systemic issues that causes black people to be violent, right?

There's a right way to go about solving the problems you're discussing, and they are very real problems, but _**becoming a pathetic bigot is not the way to go.**_

Victimization does not give you the right of discrimination based on immutable characteristics, and you are objectively a bad person if you think otherwise. There aren't any valid exceptions to this, and accepting this behavior leads to absolute pieces of shit like jk Rowling.

The difference here is the frequency with all of these things. It's easy to find a man that hasn't been cheated on by a woman. It's easy to find someone that hasn't been robbed (by anyone, let alone by a black man or woman). I am not joking that I don't think I could find a woman that hasn't, at minimum, been sexually harassed by a man, if not assaulted.

You say "if you search hard enough you’ll find it" except one doesn't have to search for this issue. It's simply everywhere. Men sexually harassing women is literally everywhere. You are dismissing their evidence by suggesting "of course you can find that *somewhere*" suggesting the evidence they gave was too specific. But yet most porn sites are FILLED with problematic content and ads, each more specific than the next. So it's not just about this specific "rape roleplay" scenario, it's about all of the countless scenarios widespread across the internet.

Recognizing a systematic issue is not sexism. Trying to minimize its prevalence by saying "not all men" is problematic. And not something I would expect with the username of "superniceperson"

That's nice and all, but given most men don't sexually assault people it's a little like treating all women as cheaters because you got cheated on, or all black people as thieves because you had an unfortunate encounter.

Sexism is sexism regardless of how you frame it.

Have you talked to women about their experiences? I challenge you to find a single woman that has not been sexually harassed by a man.

There's 9 billion people and 80% of them are on the internet. Anything you want to imagine is happening in large numbers on the internet, and if you search hard enough you'll find it.

Confirmation bias is indeed a problem, but that's all this problem is. Don't go looking for rape roleplay if you don't want that.

As I read this, she just tries to tell people, both men and women, about her experience. It’s not an uncommon experience either unfortunately. Isn’t that how men will get to ”know it’s happening”?

I know the initial reaction of feeling a bit hurt when someone makes broad statements about men, I’ve been there. But the more posts like hers I read, the more I understand the problem.

Dating for the most part is monetized vanity.

I understand that.

TrackinDaKracken was the one whose guesstimates I was questioning, not the author's.

The burden of proof is the one making the original claim. It was anecdotal, so it can be dismissed anecdotally.

How dare your insult her internet skills, she did her own research!

"I went to places where people congregate for this kind of thing and was surprised there weren't people calling it out"

Well DUH. The normal people see that shit and don't bother to register an account on the forum to post. And if they do, the mods removed it. How is that surprising at all? There are numerous instances on Lemmy that have the same behaviour(albeit for normal hobbies). Are you really surprised that in the Conservative instances it's not wall to wall "you guys suck"?

This is just confirmation bias. You found what you were looking for while actively searching it out.

Please show your data that states how many men share women's personal pics without consent.

Sorry bro she did a study, not one single man out of billions is calling out this creepy shit. Really it's quite amazing, this is the first time we've all 100% agreed on anything.

Some countries manage to enforce it better. But I agree it would be more difficult to enforce this in the west.

Impossible to enforce

Ignoring the problem is the right individual move, but as a society, it simply tells the person doing it that it's ok and there won't be consequences for it.

It's a dick pick for you today, but it might be their unwilling coworker in the alley when they work themselves up to it.

It's a psychiatric issue and if everyone ignores it, it won't just go away, it just becomes someone else's problem.

I understand the intentions behind it, but I've never given a crap when someone sends me a dick pic. I just block them and move on with my day.

It just seems like people in this comment section over react to this. (the other stuff is fucked up though)

to you people?

Seeing naked people is fine, if someone asks for it.

Someone forcing you to see them naked for their own pleasure is rapey.

The difference between the nude beach and getting unsolicited dick pics, is if you *go* to a nude beach, you kinda agreed to see naked people.

its weird and gross to do, but like how is seeing people naked so bothering to you people??

would a nude beach cause you to have a brain hemorrhage?. if I see something like that it doesn't hurt me mentally somehow??

Idiot teen is an explanation, not a dismissal. Nowhere did I say to ignore it. My point is that there is a gradient of both crimes and intents. If there is no matching gradient in legal response, then it can lead to injustice.

An idiotic crime will often need fairly minor corrections. A malicious crime requires FAR more of a response. Treating all crimes as malicious ends up diluting the view on truly malicious crimes. It can also drive individuals into the very situation you want to move them away from.

which is why underaged are charged differently. Dismissing shit as "Idiot teens" when talking about deliberate exposure of your genitals to unwilling parties really smacks of Stubenville though.

This is a crime that we let get normalised. Don't continue the normalisation.

Context matters a lot. However, in general, it's a far lower crime than many in that category. Critically, it's not of the level to be desirable to destroy their future over. The punishment should be enough to deter and correct, but not more.

Many/most of us have been idiotic teens before. Society's goal should be to correct and improve. Not go in with sledgehammers aimed at skulls. In many cases, the embarrassment alone would be enough to do the job. The law just needs to drive that point home.

If a teen made a "studpid drunken mistake" flashing someone in the street and copped the same, would you feel they had been unfairly penalised?

It would limit watering down the register with 'minor' offenses. It would also help avoid trapping an idiot teen in a negative spiral, due to a stupid drunken mistake 10 years previously.

Unsolicited naked pics have no place in society. We're not talking porn here, we're talking Joe sending a picture of his schlong to Mary like she is going to be ohh yeah let's do that.

People with that mindset are seriously damaging other people. They're the reason women are afraid to go on walks at dusk.

The penalty for that deserves some staying power. You're on the list; to get off the list, you need counseling and a psych eval. I'd go so far as to say mandatory house arrest until you get the counseling and eval.

Why an expiry? It's the digital equivalent of flashing someone. In australia that gets you a six month sentence, a $1,100 fine, or both.

What if they were banned from owning a smartphone or any camera phone? And banned from social media?

Why are you proposing scenarios other than the ones I used to specifically exemplify the fact that the measure of sexual assault/rape was massively overinflated?

Do you think "but what about the situations that are rape" is a counterargument to that? My point is that they counted a lot MORE in ADDITION to those legitimate scenarios, and that's why such a scary number was arrived at.

The bottom line fact is, no survey etc. that doesn't *massively* dilute the definitions of those terms has ever or will ever reach a conclusion like "1 in 5 female college students have been sexually assaulted or raped". There is a reason that figure isn't being thrown around anymore these days--it's been debunked thoroughly.

First of all, the Washington Examiner is a right-wing news outlet. They have a bias in there reporting and it shows.

Second, the number of sexual assaults on campus is likely significantly higher according to more recent information.

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/04/news-campus-sexual-assault

Last, if someone assaults a person who doesn’t believe they were assaulted, does that count?

Ever had sex while less than stone cold sober (keep in mind the entirety of the surveyed considered to arrive at this figure were college students)? Survey says you were raped. Doesn't matter if you were just tipsy, doesn't matter if you and your partner were equally drunk, doesn't matter whether *you* think you were raped/assaulted, nope, we decided you were.

What is that person had passed out drunk and doesn’t remember it? Is it rape now? What if that person has a learning disability or communication disability? Do you think that’s rape?

My point here is that something can be true if the person isn’t aware of it. I presume people are also more likely to say they’ve received unwanted physical interactions than to say they were raped.

You know, society used to think you couldn’t rape your wife either.

It is a different problem though. Men do no have the same systematic sexism women face. There are absolutely problems men face, but they are different. Women are much more often taken advantage of, abused, and discriminated against for their sex. So when we talk about womens problems, to then mention mens problems is pulling away attention from the problems women face. Men have historically held most, if not all, the power. That is still true to this day. Men abuse that power over women more than women abuse that power over men.

Not to mention, the problems men face when coming out about abuse are ENTIRELY different problems than a woman faces, like you said so yourself. That alone seems to me like the issues are different, meaning they would have different solutions to them. Thus, their movements would be two separate movements.

I disagree it’s a different problem, it’s the same problem besides the gender.

To be fair I don’t live in the US so it’s entirely possible that it hasn’t even been mentioned in my circles.

Terry Crews was sexually assaulted by the head of a Hollywood talent agency while at a party in 2016.

Initially, he was embarrassed and angry. He didn’t want to talk about it, but after talking to his wife and seeing what the Weinstein accusers were doing, he decided to speak up about it. Seems that he wanted men to know to know it can happen to them too and to not be afraid to speak up.

I think it’s really important for other men (and other genders) to see that. Maybe more people will be brave enough to speak out too.

That you don't know is a depressingly perfect example of how effectively this has been marginalized by society.

Not sure I know exactly what you mean with what Terry Crews did.

I know you didn’t mention it for nefarious reasons or anything. I just wanted to mention it :P

And yeah we should all respect eachother.

You’re absolutely right about sexual assault against men. I thought what Terry Crews did was heroic. Even when he didn’t want to speak out, he knew he needed to be a leader and he spoke up.

I didn’t leave it out from a lack of concern. I was just making a point by how unsafe women feel in every aspect of their lives, not just occasionally in a Reddit forum.

Trans people, especially black trans people, are targeted in at a whole other level and are often ignored in reporting. They don’t deserve that.

Crazy that we all can’t just respect each others right to live.

That’s why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let’s do better together!

If someone is talking about an issue, it is not helpful to bring up a different issue. They are not dismissing the other issue, it's simply not the topic being discussed. To bring up another issue when one is trying to be discussed is actually dismissive of the problem at hand. It's like you're trying to change the subject. You should not try to bring awareness of a problem on the thread of a different problem. Just create a thread about the problem, where the subject at hand can be that alone. If you made a post about men being victimized, and someone said "but what about women being victimized" I'm sure you could see that being problematic and dismissive.

You are absolutely going to see more posts about women being victimized. That does not mean people do not care about victimized men, it just means it's happening to women more often. There should absolutely be support and a movement for men. But, at least right now, it is separate from the movement for women.

Choosing to fuck a piece of shit, when you know they're a piece of shit, doesn't make you a victim, and I'm not entertaining this pity party claim that everyone fucking a MAGA asshole is in an abusive relationship. They aren't. But I feel for the ones who are.

Also you're putting words in my mouth. I never said these men were "misunderstood". I explained how they got there in the first place. Their beliefs and actions are clear as day. I do not sympathize with them more than abused women. But you don't want to engage my actual points, you want to set up a straw man and pull your self-righteous, self-pitying manipulative bullshit instead, which is exactly what I knew would happen.

If you dine with a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you befriend a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you fuck a Nazi, you are a Nazi.

I don't interact with anybody who does this. Really, outside of my wife and my close family I don't interact with anybody. Partially due to being assaulted multiple times, my anxiety goes through the roof.

It's horrible how some people treat each other, but understand just because I'm perceived to be part of a specific gender doesn't mean I have meaningful opportunity to do anything about it. I'm just a human, and while I agree other humans are often bad, it's out of my scope to do anything really impactful. I understand what is happening. It's much much worse than you state. It's worse in ways I probably would get banned for typing out on this site. Worse than you can possibly imagine. That's something society needs to address, and as an individual I cannot convince other people how bad it is or how extreme of action we need to take. And not for lack of trying.

It's good threads like this spread awareness, but reduction will not further the cause of improving the situation.

There are some cultures that are so female unfriendly it isn't funny, some of that has to do with religion and some of that doesn't. That's also one of the harsh realities of combating things like this because some people actually grew up and learn that women and worth less or some other kind of bullshit.

The other side of this coin is that in books and articles like this and heck even your comment only women get victimized or men get targeted. Yes statistically men are way more the cause of (sexual) abuse, misogyny or whatnot. Same with that women have it statistically worse partially because of some culture and partially because some people are just dicks and/or sick in their head.

Some men (especially gay's, minorities and insecure people) get (sexually_ abused by women or other men, but that generally flies under the radar way more since they are often not believed.

That's why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line.

Let's do better together!

It's not just about how you're treated by these communities, it's how they work mechanically.

For example, on reddit if you engage with these people, you will not only be deleted and banned from their sub, you will also be auto-banned by a bunch of opposing subs. You get one chance to participate before you need to circumvent the platform by creating a new account.

It's simply not feasible to engage with them online in this way, and that's ignoring the time and emotional energy you need to spend to do it in the first place.

The issue needs to addressed at a societal level. As a society we value all the wrong things in men and few of the right things. A lot of these guys end up in these communities specifically because they feel they can't meet the ludicrous standards created for them, and place the blame solely on women instead of our wider culture.

In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape.

And that was shown to be complete horseshit arrived at by defining 'sexual assault or rape' in a survey more broadly than any reasonable person ever would.

It's similar to the survey in the 80s all the ACABers cite to claim 40% of cops are domestically violent--in that survey, even if a voice was raised one time in the past six months, and it was the cop's spouse yelling at the cop, that survey dumped the relationship in the domestic violence bucket. Big surprise that 40% figure has never been replicated since, lol.

One example: at the end of a first date that you weren't really feeling, the guy goes in for a kiss and you decline? Guess what, even if he 'graciously'/completely accepts the denial and the date ends without incident, that went in the "sexual assault" bucket, regardless of whether the woman herself felt anything bad had happened.

Ever had sex while less than stone cold sober (keep in mind the entirety of the surveyed considered to arrive at this figure were college students)? Survey says you were raped. Doesn't matter if you were just tipsy, doesn't matter if you and your partner were equally drunk, doesn't matter whether *you* think you were raped/assaulted, nope, we decided you were.

Stuff like that is the only way to get to a figure so absurd.

Photoshop is still too much effort and requires some skill.

Once you can tell ChatGPT to "to make me some nudes of my classmate Alice" then that will change.

Just look at drones. RC planes existed for ages but you needed some skills to assemble and use them. Now you can buy them ready made and now we need all sorts of regulations that idiots aren't flying them over airports.

I, however, don't subscribe to the notion that it will normalize nudes. Those will be still used to bully those girls cause sadly people don't really need a reason to and that counts double for the young in school or collage.

I don't know, photoshop exists, and it hasn't stopped anything so far.

AI makes it easier, but may not do much to stop it.

Just look at Facebook, or the puff-jacket late pope. People do take AI-generated posts as the real thing so much of the time.

There's 4 billion men on the planet. If you want to find men with 3 arms, you'll find a lot of them.

Just because someone was victimized doesn't mean every thing they do afterwards is a smart idea. It's a fundamentally flawed approach and her being a victim doesn't change that.

Cool that you think it's ok to blame the victim dude. 🙄

Yeah, because there are so many shitty men.

i agree.

And in the west they seem to be getting worse. Anecdotal, but that's what I've been experiencing.

you don't get it because you lack the life experience of having love and trust in your life.

just stop man. you're fucking bumming me out with how sad your life must be.

Let's not confuse accountability with victim blaming. If she was forced or tricked into sharing her nudes, that's a different story altogether.

But if she willingly hit that 'send' button, then we need to talk about personal responsibility. It's tough, but she does share some culpability. Let's not sugarcoat it: she made a choice, and now she's dealing with the consequences. It's not about blaming the victim; it's about owning our actions.

By the way your prior post is the very definition of a Simping.

I've got proof that you're an incel or at the very least a child that didn't receive enough love from their parents.

https://lemmy.world/comment/16783208

Tough lesson to learn especially in the early 00s when we were just entering the digital age and all of this tech was brand new.

victim blaming and shaming. refuse to allow the perpetrators take responsibility because you feel personally attacked.

But don’t share nudes of yourself. Boobs, penis etc. it’s pretty fucking simple. Or you may get attention from people you don’t want.

victim blaming again. this is such an incel move it's almost like your penis has crawled up inside your body so it doesn't have to look at you anymore.

Not all men are dirt bags or perverts because she let nudes of herself get out in the public domain and regrets the attention she got from it.

still victim blaming. Jesus Christ, do you not ever want to be touched by a person again?

to go through your life as you do and not trust a single individual enough to share your most intimate moments with, how sad of an existence. to never feel the love or trust that someone puts in you to keep their most intimate secrets.

I'm not even mad, I'm legitimately sad for you that you will never know the amazing feelings of a loving trust between two people like what she thought she had. her trust was betrayed by someone like you, and that's just disturbing that someone as strong as her could be broken by someone as weak as you.

sort your life out and get your shit straight. life is too short to be a sad little lonely boy all your life.

Evidently, you've resorted to the classic second-grade retort of 'Nuh-uh, you are.' A timeless defense, to be sure, but ultimately as ineffective and impotent as you are.

nice of you for labeling yourself like that but you misspelled incel.


Tough lesson to learn especially in the early 00s when we were just entering the digital age and all of this tech was brand new.

But don’t share nudes of yourself. Boobs, penis etc. it’s pretty fucking simple. Or you may get attention from people you don’t want.

Not all men are dirt bags or perverts because she let nudes of herself get out in the public domain and regrets the attention she got from it.

Bollocks, men like that should absolutely be vilified.

!1000001487

Peddle your headcanon elsewhere, cultist, or keep to your containment board

No?

Are you going to judge every relationship in the world and let us all know which ones are good or not? Just curious how you find the time.

I fear that you may not know what a good relationship is.

Relationships just don't work like that. You can't have your freedom AND be in a relationship.

No good woman would expect you to give up anything for her. I think we need to zoom out on this problem and recognize the issue is really just quality vs. non quality humans. Quality people are in rare supply. That’s why you have to hold on when you find one.

I never got a nude pic, but I *100%* know/knew some guys that were *probably* like this

So.. you never encountered this yourself then?

I like that this can condemn either side

~30% of people being shitty tracks with voting patterns

My experience certainly does.

I've worked with some really great people. But maybe 1 in 5 or so was a loudmouthed shitbag, and when you called them on being shitty, they either threatened you, or acted like it was all a joke or a big misunderstanding, and *you* were at fault for being upset, etc. I can't guarantee that the shitty people I've known have harassed women, but the probability seems high.

Similar experience. Had a best friend who kept saying more and more misogynistic bs. After he said: "I could rape you, yoo know. And you wouldn't be able to stop me."

Over time, I made a munch of male friends who are awesome. Nothing beats binge watching the Owlhouse with the bro's. Or a drunk pillow fight. Or a boat trip. They are fun. One friend is the kindest, humblest dude I ever met. I view him as a role model if anything. I'm also friends with a war veteran, and he is a kind guy who loves to train dogs and people.

It's hard to find these people though. Most men don't want friendships with women. They just fuckzone em.

Same ages in the US. But not much maturing in HS.

I played hockey in high school and that was my experience too. Insanely toxic attitudes towards women. Yet we elevate these assholes because at least in the US we still value athletics in men more than anything else.

I got beat and blooded multiple times in highschool locker rooms. I'd estimate a lot higher than 30% of people are the issue.

Oh, I guess different school systems, so that didn't even come to mind to me.

At least in my country high school is from 15 to 19, I think lots of people thankfully mature and change after teenage years.

I was thinking high school locker room when I read it. Cause it fit my experience there.

Let me know how those mid terms went freshman! I know it’s exciting to be at university and all but you should learn to read the room

The numbers are pretty much a consensus among researchers. If you disagree, then the burden is on YOU to do a deep, critical analysis. I'm just reporting the conclusions of others, not doing any critical analysis. If those conclusions make you feel uncomfortable, maybe you should explore that feeling more. Although if you want to do a critical analysis, I'd welcome it.

I think it’s good that you’re trying to back your claims by sources / papers but your response tells me that you’re not trained (yet) in reading papers critically. Those are just some random question that came up from the top of my head and that any scientist would ask if someone were to present the findings of this study at a conference. This kind of rigor, to not blindly accept results but to critically evaluate them and poke holes in the arguments is what makes academia academia. I’m kind of surprised that you throw around papers and then get offended if people don’t blindly accept whatever you say, it’s kind of an interesting appeal to authority fallacy.

Well, you're really just throwing out what-ifs. But you happened to chance on one theory that some researchers think could partially explain the discrepancy:

>Being bi or lesbian still comes together with a special type of discrimination that a straight woman most likely will never experience;

Being oppressed causes stress, stress causes lack of control. The idea is it's a similar driver to why poorer couples have higher rates of abuse.

That's probably not the SOLE cause, but it's likely a factor.

I also believe different countries count differently.

Some countries only count a victim once if it occurs in the same relationship. Some count by actual individual act of abuse.

Or might just have reported more vs others, which idk but would be similar to e.g. sexual violence statistics in Scandinavian countries where officially they have much more harassment etc. than other countries, but this is just because women are more encouraged to actually go to the police and report it.

The study that statistic comes from is seriously methodologically flawed.

The statistic is that lesbians are more likely to have experienced abuse in *previous heterosexual relationships*. These are lifetime prevalence rates.

I can’t be bothered to read the paper, but here are some evergreens that make this result hard to interpret:

• The sample includes women from all ages and boomer Karens would not report abuse

• On the other hand, being bi or lesbian has only been accepted by society since the last 10-20 years. Don’t believe me? Just watch some 90s sitcom like Friends.

• Being bi or lesbian still comes together with a special type of discrimination that a straight woman most likely will never experience; hence, straight women are potentially less sensitized to abuse / might have a different bar for what they consider abuse

• Putting together these very different groups of people with very different experiences on what is "normal" will result in them having a very different sensitivity towards what they would consider abuse

• In other words a young, bi/lesbian woman is probably more likely to report abuse than an old straight woman, an old lesbian woman who is just happy might never engage with researchers because of the past societal stigma that makes her keep her life private

Of course we don’t know any of that, but these psychological studies are difficult to conduct because in theory you’d have to account for these effects and in practice that might be impossible. But again, I haven’t bothered to read the whole thing just to prove a point.

I didn't want to be the one to say it... But yeah, I've known some downright scary lesbian women.

Statistically, lesbian relationships are far more likely to be abusive than hetero ones.

https://www.standffov.org/tdvam/abuse-in-lesbian-relationships/

OMG I've witnessed so many abusive lesbian relationships. Women can be straight up psychos too, and are often a lot more calculated about it.

Yeah, look at Facebook when there's news about some 13+ male kid who got raped by a woman. You'll get grown men saying how "lucky" that kid was, and that they wish the same had happened to them at his age.

But hey, other way around it's also often shit like "look at her clothes, she was asking for it, can't be surprised".

Though, do be careful because there _are_ abusive same-sex relationships and sometimes it's even harder to get away because the people around you are telling you "but women can't be abusers!"

Not so fun fact: lesbian relationships are statistically far more likely to be abusive than hetero relationships

This is why when my daughter announced she was gay, I was absolutely thrilled. She gets to go on this new journey with the part of humanity that 1) can't cause a teen pregnancy and 2) much less abusive

This is 100% correct. I have 4 daughters myself and an amazing wife. I see it almost daily. In the current landscape, it's even harder. My older female family members don't even care. They "got theirs" and could give a shit about women growing up in this world.

I will always defend women, and I patiently wait for the day a woman in my presence gets disrespected by some Chad, Andrew Tate loving motherfucker.

I'm here for all my human sisters, as we should all be equal on this planet. Fuck these men with no morals and no human equality compass. Scared of something they don't understand or what incels tell them to act like. Its madness and makes me sick.

God I hate that you are right. I only have like one male friend because I legit had to distance myself from ao many other male friends who were just horrible people and I couldn't stand to listen to them anymore.

What places do you go? My pool is super chill, I have seen all kind of uplifting moments.

Maybe certain gyms have a selection bias? I don't know.

That just seems... Insane? My experience certainly doesn't reflect this. But I never do averages based on a sample size of one.

Graduated in 08

I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it.

I've come across them. But only on 4chan, which there is fuckall anyone can do about, short of breaking into their site.

Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird.

I would hope the same of my friend group. I've tossed a lot of friendships in the trash because of their behavior. So those that remain are hopefully those that are actually good.

* Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.

I'm glad you pointed this out. I realized how isolating cars are after moving to a walkable neighborhood. I'm convinced walkable neighborhoods foster community.

However, it’s mainly boys/men with this problem and they’re having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent.

Yeah that touches on a related problem, the fact that we've designed society to be anti-social.

• You can't easily hang out with friends, because they're half way across the city/state/etc.

• Nobody has consistent free time due to the enormous energy and time requirements for a financially stable life if you can even have one.

• There are no third places to meet people

• Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.

It's incredibly hard to have a social life, and as a result people lash out. And they tend not to care about if the thing they lash out against is the correct thing to lash out against.

And it's a self feeding cycle. Because men tend to lash out in the form of right wing populism, and any woman who knows anything will steer clear of that nonsense. So it feeds into itself.

In your case it's self hatred racism, but it's driven by the same forces.

Asian Mom White Dad is more likely to be seen as fetishized, or in a monetary relationship, especially if the man is older than the woman. White Mom Asian Dad is seen as a sign the man is rich or success to pull a white woman, especially if she is younger.

Killer reply, friend.

I've called these assholes out on reddit to in the past. My reward was not only getting banned from their sub, but also getting auto-banned from a bunch of unrelated mainstream and progressive subs.

The idea that we can just go in and win an argument with these clowns is incredibly naive. I get the sense that the author didn't actually try to do this herself. Social media is specifically built to push people into impenetrable bubbles because the algorithms intentionally favor combative tribalism, which drives up engagement.

But social media is only part of the problem. We have bigger issues related to how we think about men, and how we raise boys, that drive them into this mentality in the first place. Toxic masculinity is not new, it's just been spread rapidly by technology.

Let’s not forget that the people that call out said behavior get banned and their comments deleted.. you can’t authentically claim nobody calls them out because you don’t actually know if anyone is or not.. because ban.

I think so to. I've seen a lot of pornography and never encountered a community like that. I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it. Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird. I had a couple dudes try to show me pictures their girlfriends sent them in the past but I did call them out for that.

An apropos of that. I'm Chinese/Viet half-and-half and was born in the UK. I have friends in the UK that are half-Chinese and half-British (white/caucasian). I had no idea that there were so many "half-Chinese" specific groups online.

Also, I can't remember but there was some business about having a Chinese dad was better than a Chinese mom (I could have them switched). However, it's mainly boys/men with this problem and they're having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent. My friend tries to chime in to talk some sense into them but the self-victimization is really strong and he gets pushed out.

i can't fight every woman's battles for her, but i sure as shit can beat the brakes off anyone who fucks with a woman in my immediate circle.

Post the screenshot

Yes, because "men" is such a stringent definition for a hedgemonic class.

Half the population on earth, across different social statuses, nationalities, wealth, race, age, and so on. Honestly, claiming this is the "group in power" is absurd.

A completely poor analysis, what there is to reflect on?

No. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race. Being part of a group that is generally a target doesn't excuse your own behavior and give a blank card for your own prejudices.

We are ALL grown-ups. Act like it. Asking someone to be aware of their own privilege is not the same as telling someone they're inherently guilty to the genitals or skin color they were born with, regardless of their own actions. That is NOT "being asked to self-reflect" as you put it. That is simply prejudice and you will be called out on it. The same way I will call-out a cat-calling man, a man-hating woman or a raging racist, because to me you are all the same.

That’s not how racism works. The group in power at the top of the hedgemony that subjugates other groups doesn’t get to claim victim status when they’re asked to self reflect.

They are not right, they are sexist as fuck

If all men are responsible for the shitty men because we have the capacity to be that way - then all women are responsible for the shitty things women do and they owe me an apology and better treatment before they'll get anything from me

You have the right to say sexist shit. And we have the right to call you out for it.

Look, you want to vent because there are problematic men, go ahead. You have to complain because there are aspects of male culture that enable such men, go ahead.

But the moment you attack a whole group for the actions of a few, just because of physical similarities you are no better than a racist and I will call you for it.

Perfect.

As an allegedly misandrist, man-feminist critical of Men's culture broadly, I am telling you this: these are the **only two things** you need to believe in.

I am tasking you with the responsibility of simply wanting a better society. If you see any *person* being harassed or chauvenistic or socially ignored because they're not "in the club," man or woman, and no matter the debate on which demographics tend to do what more often—if you have the heroic urge to help someone, that's all you need.

This might sound a bit like I'm asking you to do something you already do, but if that's true, that's even better! A lot of people out there think of themselves as heroes but are easily swept away from the call to action by things like the bystander effect or simply not wanting to rock the boat. I believe in your ability to stand up and help people.

Also, I am surprised by your straightforwardness. I appreciate that, lol. :)

1. Yes

2. Generally yes, but it depends. If I feel like my intervention can actually be useful, sure. For example, if anybody in my acquaintances would be doing that or be a victim of that. "Intervene" also would most likely be reporting or providing shelter, I am not Batman.

Note that both the answers are independent on whether the stalker is a man or not.

"people should be accountable for the actions of other people in the same demographic",

Sudneo! Answer these questions:

Do you agree that stalking women is bad behavior?

If you discovered *a person* who was stalking a woman, would you seek to intervene?

Don't yadda-yadda about what the argument was to me—I don't care. I want the answers to these two questions.

Ironically that poster is an Israel supporter. By _their own logic_ every Israeli should be victim of default "suspicion" and be treated like an IDF war criminal, since everyone has the "potential" to be one.

Actually, this argument would be even more compelling since Israel does have elections and you can emigrate/renounce to your citizenship, both not possible in case of manhood.

It's bizarre that someone could come up with such a poor argument that ultimately boils down to: "people should be accountable for the actions of other people in the same demographic", without realising there are tons of way you can divide people in demographics.

I can't comprehend how people can make such a statement when the same logic applied to race instead of gender would make them (righteously) scream bloody racism.

I'm not responsible for the actions of someone who has the same genitals as me, no more than someone with the same skin color.

Yes, because the solution to misogynistic chauvinism is misandronistic chauvinism. Brilliant thinking... That'll alter things for the better.

because at least all men share the potential to act out problematic gender roles

Everyone (literally) has the potential to act out problematic gender roles, women included.

protect other men from female criticism because "they are different"

This sentence is legit incoherent. If a criticism doesn't apply to someone, protecting against said criticism is quite literally preventing discrimination.

If men want to get rid of the collective suspicions

Or maybe we can criticize unfair collective suspicion in the same way summary judgments based on other categories are crticizised.

I really can't see how this argument does not lead to racism, sexism, etc.

Being a man is not being part of a club, you don't decide to join, you don't subscribe to any value, you don't have a steering committee that decides how "manhood" is by vote. Why tf anybody should be responsible to change a group that they are part of simply for biological reasons?

Screenshotting this for the next time some dipshit tries to tell me people don't say shit like this

If men want to get rid of the collective suspicions they need to act to prevent their own sexism and misogyny and those of other men!

I'm fine with the collective suspicion, since I know that (a) the suspicions are misplaced for me personally, and this will be obvious to anyone spending any time around me, and (b) because this is a dominant attitude only among women who are chronically online, who I wouldn't want to spend time with anyway.

So, sorry, your shame-blackmail won't work on me. If you are going to other me, putting me on the other "side", then please provide a reason for helping you that will benefit me personally. After all, why would I want to help someone who sees me as an enemy?

A random sub-reddit doesn't represent any significant portion of "men," as a class.

You’re right but the problem lies in not even being able to have this conversation online without the mobbing

I understand what you’re saying, what I meant was every time i got to the point where I had a preconceived idea about a group of people, I was proven that I was wrong. There are always exceptions - that is my point.

From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.

Not always but the exceptions (or as close to exceptions as generalizations can ever get you anyway) are usually cases where the stereotypical behavior is entangled deeply with the very definition of the group, e.g. the vast majority of kids of rich parents can't understand the struggles of being poor.

The thing is most of these dudes are highly desired and taken already so what you get on tinder rotation is absolutely _not_ that.

No, I'm a complete asshole and women love me for it.

I always feel bad for the nice guys who get to watch from the sidelines.

You may also be conditioned. Conditioned to think you would treat a woman exceptionally well, yet you harbor a subconscious misogyny. There are many cases where the "dorky" and "unpopular" guy gets a chance, the woman behaves in a way that doesn't meet his standards, and he becomes abusive.

i was going to say the same thing, that is like the creepy thing a guy can say to a girl they want interact with. nice guy are not nice to a girl. and many woman can smell the desperation of incels so they stay away from them too.

It's sad how much you people have been conditioned to ignore the truth whenever it's something someone else doesn't like.

>does not give anyone the right to distribute them against her wishes.

You're right, it doesn't give them the right. Did you think I was implying that it did? You might want to brush up on your reading comprehension if that's the case.

You think the woman can change to be more responsible...

but you don't think the man can change to be less irritating.

Pulido, if you don't believe bad people can change, why bother with a society that keeps prisoners at all? Why not just kill them?

We shouldn't expect bad people to do the right thing because otherwise they wouldn't be bad people. Do you honestly believe this person didn't know what he was doing when he did it? Of course he did, he just didn't care.

I know you like living in a fantasy land, but in the real world there are plenty of horrible people that only see others as stepping stones to get what they want. It's not the world I want to live in, but I would be willfully ignorant if I did not accept it.

*And also* start educating the average, shitbag womanizer males to not be that. We could teach them to be normal.

He doesn't even have to be 'openly shitty.' He just has to be 'average' or 'typical' and that should be enough to set off alarm bells because the current dating landscape rewards shitty males while punishing good ones.

It's a cultural problem. I'm not going to give the average male the benefit of the doubt because most average males I've come across in my life fall into the category of 'shitbag womanizer.'

We need to stop enabling them and start educating people on how to make better decisions on who they associate with.

And you would have a point if the man was an openly shitty person. For all you knew this was an otherwise respectable dude who still shared nudes of his partner. You can't always tell shitty dudes ahead of time. Sometimes you can only know them when they are being shitty dudes.

Instead, you don't have a point, you're just looking to blame the victim.

I guess it’s also the fault of the victims of abusive relationships then? A man getting abused by his wife or girlfriend should have just *not gotten with her*?

The point is you can’t know what someone’s like right away, sometimes not for a long while into a relationship.

And again, why are you blaming her and the person sharing the photos?

You either didn't read the article or have a definition of consent that honestly worries me:

>The most lasting repercussions from that period stemmed from her modelling agency’s requirement to provide a weekly selfie. In a forerunner to OnlyFans, her agency ran a website that gave private content to subscribers.

>Around the same time, as a student and part-time model, someone she was dating took her photo while she slept and posted it on his mates’ group chat.

But honestly that is somewhat besides the point. Even if she would have made the photos without any outside pressure and full consent that does not give anyone the right to distribute them against her wishes.

If I go to the bank and put my money into my a savings account I am not to blame if they turn around, use it to gamble and lose it all. I never agreed for them to use it in such a fashion even though I agreed for them to use it and it is not something I should have to expect from a bank.

You'd have a point if she didn't willingly give the pictures up to the shitty male that shared them.

And I bet you’re a nice guy

theres a reason why woman go after guys like that and not like "nice guy like you" first of all nice guy always codeward for acting like a creepy stalker.

a shitty or dumb guy probably has more personality, than "nice guys". Also there is something for everyone dont down yourself, and people like incels thinking they "undatabale". even 2 shitty people can date and marry and have kids, 1 woman and 1guy both can be bad people but still date.

No one has nudes of me because...I don't take nudes or give them to others. It's that easy.

Not unlike what I said to my children (all sons), "If you are having sex and not taking an active role in contraceptives, then you are saying you're fine with your partner deciding to have children." If you give out nudes, then you have explicitly decided to give that person the option to distribute them. This isn't a statement of legality, but a statement of reality.

They keep putting their faith in shitty males then act all surprised when the males turn out to be shit.

What actions should she take responsibility for? And why is your first response to attack her over the people causing her harm?

At some point, people have to take responsibility for their actions. Otherwise they're just being treated like children.

You don't think this woman should be treated like a child, do you?

Yeah how dare she get her personal photos spread across the internet and get sexually harassed!

This is the most incel take and just kind of proves her point

Nice victim-blaming, creep.

That last paragraph in particular reads like a parody of incel thought.

You may be a "nice guy" if...

*sniff*

Dude, take a shower, I can smell your incel ass through the internet

Bet we have more common ground than not!

e.g. what’s oriental?, prob a rug

Yeah I'ma use chick and female as I see fit.

We haven’t used that in a while

Nor female in the specific way used right here

_(^posted kindly, Calipher!)_

Chick is slang for female.

but no very pretty never heard it before

Because the sort of people who *would* downvote that, have learned to avoid trying to get into these conversations.

People would likely be downvoting because if we're having a conversation about group A doing Z bad thing to group B, changing the conversation to "well group B does Y bad thing to group A" is generally seen as a not cool thing to do.

The problem for *me* now is, someone is going to come and try fighting me over how men can be, and are, victimized. I know that. Anyone with a brain knows that. Men need more support than they're getting, also, and toxic masculinity (ironically, the same kind you can find in the Man-o-Sphere) is so, so mean to men, telling them to walk it off, to suck it up... I can't *tell* you how much work I've had to do to help deprogram the fiance, who spent 20 years in the Army... *But that wasn't the discussion.* It's changing the topic.

You're not *allowed* to talk about any problems women face, without someone saying, "but men have problems, too," and then getting mad at you for being a man-hater if you don't immediately drop the thing you were talking about to discuss the problems men face. Which is such a shame, because it solves neither problem, and just serves to piss people off.

So now that I've engaged *you*, and said the thing those people weren't saying, someone (possibly multiple someones) are going to try and fight me. I'm going to try and ignore them, but I have ADHD, so we'll see what happens.

They have moved to a dedicated website now.

Weird that this is getting downvoted so heavily, but nobody is elaborating why, just downvoting it and moving on.

r/FemaleDatingStrategy is/was a subreddit as well (seems inactive since 2023), it was basically the same as r/theredpill, just for women.

I read through their new posts and “strategies” frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.

Sound advice, it's useful to recognize the bullshit lingo & rhetoric that's all a part of these idiotic schemes (see: "Pickup Artists"). I realized that one of my acquaintances had started slipping those catchphrases into convos years ago, and it caught me off guard. They hadn't seemed like much of an asshole before, but it raised my hackles knowing that they weren't just reviewing the media, but integrating it into their personality/beliefs without any sort of filter.

Honestly knowing what I know about guys, I wouldn't date them either if I was a chick.

It is really disturbing how there are entire online communities of men basically dedicated to teaching each other how to be abusers.

they moved onto other subs once that got banned, or on another platform, they are sitll there on places, like twoxchromosone, femcels,,,,etc. alpha, beta thing came from pickup artists videos, and incels/and other men binge on that content.

beautiful quote, saved......saved to my wank bank! had you going there for like 7 periods! I need to share this on twitter

And you can (continue to) shut down the more "minor" conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.

I don’t think their intention was to shut anything down and or about not believing women.

It seemed like the user your responding to was expressing frustration over the portion of the excerpt that implies it’s the fault of all men for not calling this out when there’s a lot of men who don’t ever encounter this directly to call it out like that.

But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so.

Ideally I wouldn't assume anything based on such broad generalities. I would base my understanding on my understanding of the person making the claim. If the woman making the claim has shown tendencies in the past of lying and starting drama, I will likely do nothing, and will sort of quietly wander away to find another conversation because I don't want to be involved in whatever shit she is starting now. Though I will also probably never be present for this conversation, since I probably would have removed this person from my life a long time ago and would actively avoid interacting with them, because it is an unpleasant experience. If I know the woman to generally be trustworthy and straightforward, I will say "wow, that sucks, let me know if I can do anything to help you feel better".

I've known several women who confessed to me that they'd been sexually assaulted in the past. My response, more or less, was "wow, I'm sorry that happened to you. Let me know if you want to talk about it more, or if there is anything I can do to help." And that is the extent of what I can do, since I have no idea who the people who assaulted them are. It's not like I can just bust down some random guy's door and beat him up.

And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.

Such as....? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I *assume* you are talking about the conversations where guys say things like "no means yes, yes means anal" - which, again, I have never, ever been involved in. Like, ever. I don't know who these people are or where they hang out. I infer they exist based on second hand accounts if others. But they seem to not like me, and don't invite me to their parties.

When my male friends and I talk about women, our conversations usually go: ugh, why don't girls like me?; ugh, my girlfriend is being distant and standoffish; ugh, my girlfriend broke up with me. I've never had a friend speak poorly of women in general, say they "deserve" anything as a group, or anything like that.

So, again, this seems like a big case of "I can't do anything about this, so I'm not going to worry about it."

"I've never had a friend tell me he sends girls dick pics"

Well he wouldn't, would he? They know it's toxic behavior even though they enjoy doing it and might even brag about it with equally toxic guys. This is a problem women constantly have, the men in their lives don't believe things are happening because it doesn't happen when they're there. It's a far less niche sphere than it appears to you, and I agree it's probably not going to be out in front of you for you to do something about. But you can start by assuming women mostly don't bring things up unless they're really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so. So if they do, they're probably not lying or imagining it. Even if your experience of that guy is completely different. And you can (continue to) shut down the more "minor" conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.

Then good news! There are people doing this. I'm in a discord where some people work on a bot that basically calls out that stuff on reddit. Making the bot is straightforward, the problem is it keeps getting banned for arguing. The hardest part is keeping the reddit account alive.

Well, if you have some to invest, could you see about getting "i.e." into the default autocorrect database so we don't have to go back and force it every time?

So you need a coordinated effort of thousands of people who will get continuously moderated, banned or censored. OK, I admit that it's possible, but I think I'd rather invest my time in other ways...

By yourself probably not. But a battalion of opposing arguments could possibly turn the tide. These guys have already demonstrated how susceptible they are to peer pressure, after all. And they're not all online at once, so if they're suddenly in the minority in their usually toxic forum...

Several studies also describe the backfire effect, I.e., people getting more entrenched in their position when confronted with opposing arguments. I doubt I can ever succeed where a decade+ of education system failed.

r/conservative has already disproven that experiment, no matter how much opposition, they will spin a million excuses and point out how their echo chamber is being "brigaded" by bots or whatever

You'd be banned faster than trying to say "Tiananmen" on grad

get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other's arguments and shooting down sexist crap

Such behaviour is called "brigading" and it's very much frowned upon.

We should weaponize bots to do this. With AI it doesn't even need to be real people anymore.

They're using them against us and it's long past time we responded in kind.

Precisely. It's completely different from doing that in your group of friends, where confrontation is a way to establish common values, and in an internet cesspool where anyway I am going to be moderated out.

Just yesterday I was reading a great article about how social medias compare to TV when it comes to feeling part of a group. "Calling out" people in such places wouldn't be anything else that virtue signaling (to yourself) to reaffirm your own identity (I stand up to sexism), and at the same time allow those people to reaffirm themselves (I get confronted because I am speaking truth).

Basically it would be at most a performance.

I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community ...

Me too, both. That we have responsibility for others and that we are not obliged to put ourselves at harms risk.

But this is a particularly shitty, maybe wicked problem. There are three groups: A bullies B, and C could stop A, but isn't bothered by anyone. Now, is C obliged to pick a fight with A, or is B just in bad luck to be born as a B?

I think here, it is very easy to have strong opinions, while very hard to formulate a concise moral argument. Things get muddier/harder the more we factor reality in.

Right. In real life you can look someone in the eye and see some semblance of humanity (or at least fear). Online, it doesn’t matter what you say or how you’re perceived, because people get to hide in their perceived anonymity. And you never know when some psychopath with no morals or sense of decency is going to have you swatted.

I have the moral obligation to do that because...I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.

They _explicitly_ don't want us non-shitty men there to harsh their vibe and will refuse to listen, so yeah, what the fuck are we supposed to do?

If I see it happening IRL I shut it down and use my 6'4" powers to look down at whoever's doing it and give them a good scare, but I'm not gonna go to the fucking incel forums and make my day worse for no goddamn reason

I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.

If you happened to go in there and speak against them, you'd just be banned and have your post removed.

You’re essentially saying “just nut up and do it.”

No. I said that the question is:

how can the capability to leave the abuser be built

I didn't ever compare what's necessary for that with learning to cook. The cooking thing was about how it's silly to go from "doesn't know how to" to "you're at fault". I used, specifically, an example far enough from abuse so it could be a general point, not tangled up with the dating assholes bit.

Where I did get into "How can it be built" was my edgetake later: Figure out why assclowns are so damn attractive that some women go back to them, put up with them, and then don't blame the woman for having that attraction, but find a safe outlet. I'm sure that's not the whole of the solution but I do think that it's a necessary component.

You sure do like to cherry pick and blast incel rhetoric eh?

Don't worry about further response, you aren't worth the time.

Misandry is when someone says men who believe women shouldn't be allowed to vote are abusive.

Thank you for that elevated, nuanced take, king.

Women in relationships with assholes who believe they should have no rights

Firstly, the original commenter who described the kind of relationship we're discussing didn't say "no rights" they said "shouldn't be allowed to vote" which is a very much more limited view than what you're raging against.

are always being abused by the aforementioned asshole.

That's not the situation that was described by the original commenter. Just because someone is an asshole and has reprehensible views, doesn't necessarily mean that they are abusive. There's a difference and if you can't see and acknowledge that difference then you're just engaging in misandry. In which case, best of luck, take care, bye now.

Have you forgotten the entire context of this thread?

Nope.

Did you even glance at the article?

I read every word.

They also talked about ... a man *who doesn’t want his partner to vote*

That is not what they talked about. They said "men who genuinely claim that women shouldn't be allowed to vote". That is not the same thing as a man who displays controlling behaviour over their partner.

Can you really not infer anything from that?

There's no need for anyone to infer anything in this discussion, it's quite clear and explicit what people are talking about.

Victims of abuse are victims who need external assistance.

You may better understand what someone is saying if you respond to their whole sentence and not just the part you wanted to attack.

Abuse is abuse regardless of how small you as an outsider perceive it. Women in relationships with assholes who believe they should have no rights are always being abused by the aforementioned asshole.

I don't understand your argument and you haven't addressed the issue at hand.

Please spell out for me why a woman in a relationship with a man who believes that women shouldn't have the right to vote, can't exit that relationship?

Victims of abuse *are victims*

Note that the person you responded to didn't mention abuse, you introduced the term "abuse". We're talking about women in relationships with assholes, not abused women.

Victims of abuse are victims who need external assistance.

Agreed. Assistance, implementation of which requires understanding of why they're not leaving those assholes, worse, returning to them, or fall into the same pattern with a different asshole, all on their ostensibly free will.

The question is "how can the capability to leave the abuser be built". It involves, in one way or the other, a change in the victim. Getting better at leaving pieces of shit.

Seriously I have difficulty, and this might be male perspective, to equate "need to get better at" with the frame "you're at fault". At some point, I needed to get good at cooking. Was it my fault that I couldn't cook? Nope. It's not like I didn't show interest as a kid, it's that noone ever bothered to actually teach me anything, so I didn't know anything. Still had to get good at it. It's a problem so you solve it. Why would I care wasting my breath blaming my upbringing it only distracts from learning. It can provide an excuse, but excuses don't make dinner.

---

Ah, fuck it, let's risk it. My edgetake on why some women end up again and again with assholes: Because noone told them (early enough?) that they can go to a kind guy, start a tickle fight, and get all the thrill they'll ever want. It's a function of attraction to the capability to throw down.

We understand people can be brainwashed/emotionally and mentally manipulated to unbelievable extremes - watch any of the hundreds of cult documentaries that have come out over the last decade.

Steven Hassan's BITE model is a good start for that kind of information, the interesting thing being that a lot of those cult-manipulation techniques are visible in anything from individual relationships (not just romantic ones either, parent/child in either direction, "friends",...) over cults and religions to workplaces and political movements.

We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.

I don't disagree with that. I would support that in a heartbeat if I had the funds to do so.

>Not all shitty partners induce fear. I’ve known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the “i can fix him” mentality.

Sure, not all shitty partners, but there is often more going on behind closed doors than many people realize.

>My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn’t have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.

That's called "love bombing" and is a common part of the cycle of abuse.

>We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.

I don't disagree with that, however, people like this tend to worm their way into positions of authority like a parasite that you can't get rid of. The fact that they often have zero issues lying through their teeth to get you on "their side" is a massive issue that many of the general public simply cannot grasp ("why would my wife/husband/preacher/friend/etc lie to me?" etc...).

It gets even worse when someone like that gets their hands on the very methods used to build those organizations and tears them all down. See the current state of the USA for example. I lived with an abusive partner for 11 years, and there is an unbelievable amount of parallels between them and the current US administration. What they are doing right now is incredibly triggering, knowing that I essentially have no escape from it.

We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.

Not all shitty partners induce fear. I've known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the "i can fix him" mentality. My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn't have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.

We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.

::: spoiler spoiler

sadfgsgsdg

:::

Fear.

These women don’t leave because these men are narcissistic assholes who have destroyed their self-esteem and made them think they are worthless and won’t find anything better and can’t live on their own.

I agree, and in my opinion, women and partners in general need to get better at leaving piece of shit men (or shitty partners in general). Many of them keep acting like this cause they get away with it after some small talk and a nice dinner just to be a piece of shit again next week. I've known girls who date men who genuinely claim that women shouldn't be allowed to vote and all i can think is "why is this girl staying with someone who hates them?"

The good men aren't there and don't even know what's going on. I've used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.