Less Than Half in U.S. Now Sympathetic Toward Israelis

Just like the United states too

For Palestine specifically, Khalidi's *The hundred years war on Palestine* goes over the period of transition from the ottoman empire, to zionist colonization. It goes in-depth into peaceful relations between religious communities for hundreds of years before zionism.

As for the middle ages through the ottoman empire, you can glance over these wiki sections, but its fairly universally accepted that Islamic states were in general refuges and safe-havens for jewish peoples who had to flee christian persecution, or those who already lived in the regions.

Jewish communities have existed across West, Central and South Asia, and North Africa, throughout the middle ages, and until the mid-20th century. They are known as the Mizrahi Jews, and were largely tolerated by Muslim rulers. In fact, Jews in Morocco and al-Andalus (modern-day Spain) worked as civil and military officers for the Moors, and Muslim rule was seen as a Golden Age of Jewish science and art.

The fact islam has existed for over the thousand years in these regions yet you find large percentage of these minorities existing to this day is a testament that they didn't go on a crusade to wipe them out unlike europe. In fact it was the ottomans that took in and rescued jews when europe was persecuting them.

Where are the Jewish communities that existed for millennia in these countries? Ask the coptics how they feel, ask the Kurds. I'm not trying to defend Israel by any means, but it's disingenuous af to claim the region was some bastion of tolerance and understanding.

but let’s not pretend the Palestinians wouldn’t be doing the same given the upper hand.

They lived in peace for hundreds of years before the zionist settler-colonial project. So there's no evidence that the victims of Zionism can be equated with their oppressors, just because "all religion bad".

Muslim countries historically have been far kinder to their religious minorities than any european one also.

It's not like the Palestinians welcomed them into their homes in the 1930s and 40s, surely not! Religion bad! Go back to reddit you fucking rat

The imperialist/military-industrial complex element should not be forgotten, either. There’s *a lot* of money invested in the US’s unsinkable aircraft carrier in West Asia.

It's insane to me and I don't think many people realize that a large part of American (civilian, non-academic, "salt of the earth" types) support for Israel is directly tied to eschatology.

A huge swath of Christians (and some Jews, and some Muslims) believe the Third Temple has to be built where the Dome of the Rock currently stands before their messiah can return. It's literally a doomsday cult, they expect/want WWIII.

A large portion of US zionists are white Christians who have no connections to the middle east other than their doomsday prophecy.

What you wrote is gone. From what I remember of it, if that's what you were trying to say, you needed to word it better. To be generous.

No,very few of the Palestinian population is involved in the fighting. It's mostly civilians in Gaza.

The Israelis have mandatory military service. That's the side with a population of nearly 100% terrorists.

Dont jump to conclusions. Re read what I wrote..

Of course it is. But that doesn't justify war crimes.

I assume you mean the side having their homes bombed is the Palestinians? Since most of them have had their lives uprooted?

But the other side (Israel) is *not* watching from the sidelines. Nearly 100% of their population works for or has worked for the military. If not, they arrest you.

Palestinians fighting for their homes, and their right to exist, are not terrorists. We should not let the ICC or any "official" body dictate morality for us; we know the Palestinian cause is a just one.

What I mean is one side is having their homes bombed and lives uprooted (or just lost altogether) while the other side watches from the side lines. Innocent civilians killed in the streets. Women, children, actual babies killed for money. Disgusting

What are these "sides" comprised of in your mind? Who specifically are you accusing of being a "terrorist"? In Palestine - the entire population? The ruling political party "Hamas"? The militarized subset of it, the "Al Qassam brigades?" Or only the specific members thereof who engaged in war crimes at any point - the few of that group who are still alive? What definition of "terrorism" are you using - the "using violence to influence political opinions" which characterizes every government that's ever engaged in war? The Palestinian people have had their country stolen and have been corralled off from the surrounding world by a military occupier in the tiny subset of it that remains - they have a legal right to self-defense, and the very existence of "Israel" as a state has come at the cost of the absolute violation of their sovereignty and human rights, solely to impose the imaginary, invented sovereignty of an immigrating colonizing population, that was hoisted on them against their will by *another* colonizer (the British). Using the word "terrorist" used in this context is insane. It seems to hinge on the relationship of Hamas with Islamism, which isn't even absolute, because it's a pluralist, "big tent" party. Beyond there, what, it's based on them having darker skin or being Muslim, which is what that word evokes for the more brainwashed Americans anyway. Rather, armed resistance in their case - as much as we'd all like to avoid violence of any kind - is legally sanctioned self-defense against a militarily aggressive entity, who has their territory and people under military occupation.

You need to educate yourself more on this topic and clarify your thinking.

All I know is that if I can blame the average Russian, German, Brit, Serbian, Hutu etc for bad things in history. No force on earth is going to have me give Americans a pass. Especially after the majority of them supported the wars in the Middle East.

It’s a genocide, the clues are everywhere. It’s not an American thing that makes it unique. There are shitty people everywhere mixed in with decent folks.

And it’s fine to not protest or just be quiet. Sometimes that is all one can do. It’s ok to think one is powerless to oppose such things. This is the case for many.

But actual support that is voluntary? No

And I think there is some overlap between our two views. Many of the people who I would give a pass to, are many of the people you talk about

Most people have a very surface level understanding of various political issues. There's only so many hours in a day, and people choose to use them in different ways. I can't really blame them for that. I also can't blame them for the fact that we're probably one of the most heavily propagandized peoples on earth, with Fox and the right wing news networks being the crowning jewel of such. I can see how it'd be easy to take your infotainment of Jesse Waters smugly "owning" Nancy Pelosi over some stupid fucking bullshit she said or did without ever hearing a real dissenting voice and just stop there. I can't agree with it, but a lot of the normies I know have made it clear to me that I'm a special case in that regard.

No doubt about the genocide.

Maybe I am unfairly judging Americans who support Israel or look down on Palestinians.

But I have so much anger about that I cannot be impartial. Most Americans have had hints they ignore, deliberately. I can’t forgive that

I think it’s all part of the child abuse cycle; people manipulated and humiliated while young, without a person to speak up for them, tend to support these types of things. And a lot of their children will too.

But those who had more nurturing and love tend to not support ideologies which dehumanize, and can recognize more when something promotes senseless violence. They are also more decent adults.

but unlike most of the other cults; people who escape from this cult are not popularly heeded.

It's a chicken and egg situation. Do terrible people support zionism? Or does zionism make people terrible? I'm pretty sure it's the second option. People of all religions (especially civil religion) are brainwashed into this cult from birth.

It mostly works on people already bigoted and hateful, I think. A decent person may have inaccurate picture, but indecent people support it more

Extreme, overt brainwashing.

Brainwashing. Trying to understand the Palestine- Israel situation was something I casually worked at, off and on, for twelve years, which is 1000x more effort than most Americans put into it. I'd get about six hours into trying to untangle the propaganda and get what I felt was an accurate portrayal of the truth using what I felt were high factuality, unbiased sources and just get nowhere. I got as far as understanding that Israel is an authoritarian police/ethnostate, but I never had so clear of a picture of the situation as I do now. Israel has removed all doubt for me that they're proudly undertaking a project of genocide.

Human psyche is susceptible to manipulation.

Brainwashing or just nasty people?

This community is clearly pro-Palestine since I keep getting downvoted, and only my comments are getting deleted, but I do find it funny how everyone here is giving me shit for being a Zionist and everyone else is ignoring my statement about how Palestine would be significantly worse. What's your alternative?

Ethnostates are never necessary and are always fascist.

You want the genocidal dictator to "step down" and the genocidal terrorist army "needs reform"?

You're not even trying, man. At least try to make it seem like you actually believe your "both sides" hasbara. Ass is, we can all see that you're a rabid genocidal Zionist.

So you can't answer the question

Absence of support of Israel isn't the same thing as antisemitism, no matter what they'd like you to believe. I have no particular views regarding Ecuador, that doesn't mean I'm racist against them.

How do you ensure the alternative doesn't?

If you are aware of what they are doing, and you provide support to them, that is therefore knowingly providing support to their actions, whether you agree with those actions or not.

Or, if you just meant 'agree with' rather than 'supply', then I would say that what they're doing is not something they will ever stop. It's an integral part of their existence as an imperial Zionist state, they aren't just doing it for fun, or because of some 'bad apples'. They have no plan or desire to stop, their history is mostly just this same type of war and besieging repeated, and the USA would probably abandon them and let them collapse if they miraculously *did* decide to stop, because the US imperial strategy only values the Zionist Regime as a attack dog in the Middle East, a region critical for resource control.

A lot of words to say, it might as well be supporting guns without supporting bullets. There is no *realistic* situation where guns won't be used to shoot bullets. They can't be separated, in reality. Why support guns, at that point? It's just a comfortable abstract idea in a vacuum.

What would "support" look like in this case? How do you ensure that support isn't weaponised and used to promote genocide?

Israel is what it is doing. It was founded on settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing.

The name Israel was chosen by the Zionist movement for a reason & reflects what they are doing. By keeping the name, you're enabling/supporting them.

No, you really can't: the nature of a thing is what it does

You can support israelis by sending them back to Poland or to hell.

The problem isn’t that Israel is an ethno-religious state, it’s that it’s a genocidal, apartheid, settler-colonial state imposing itself on someone else’s land, and it’s trying to ethnically cleanse that land of its indigenous peoples, and it’s trying to expand its territory into a “Greater Israel,” extending its project of ethnic cleansing ever wider.

Orrrrr, now hear me out, we ratchet up the propaganda, black listing, and police responses to protests. Eh?

You can support Israel without supporting what they're doing.

Edit: the state of Israel

Hey, that's not nice, the shit is insulted...

No but really, the Israeli government is absolutely the shit of shits.

:(

Sadly, i'm not so sure that is true these days

Imagine believing that islamophobia isn't a fundamental factor in genociding muslims.

....do you *not* know where Bosnia and Herzegovina is? It's a coastal post-Yugo country next to Serbia and Croatia, south of Hungary IIRC. The Bosnian war and NATO intervention isn't exactly secret knowledge.

>Very cool for your 1 country

The USA (the country in question) has zero (0) women presidents elected ever. Not even one. So yeah imma stop reading this conversation lol

Weaponizing ignorance to justify genocide. Here’s another list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_women_heads_of_state_and_government

Shut up you ignorant fool https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_women_heads_of_state_and_government

Not sure why that's relevant, but:

>The first democratically elected female prime minister of a Muslim majority country was Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan, who led her party to victory in the 1988 general election and later in 1993

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_first_women_heads_of_state_and_government_in_Muslim-majority_countries

I think that your point confuses islamic state with a muslim majority state. While almost all muslim majority states allow women to vote(even though some only quite recently like saudis), islamic state would be different. This is of course same for any fundamentalist state like a jewish one or christian one. They are incompatible with democracy.

You had me in the first half. Then you just had to moralize about genocide not being a valid red-line for you.

And this is a country whose people have been fed heavily pro-Israel propaganda since the day they were born. What does the rest of the world think

Fascism is unpopular. 🙁

I has no sympathy towards the genocidal ideology of zionism.

But I'm definitely sympathic to people who are born in palestine and resist the ongoing genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. Regardless of their "religion" or lack thereof. That's brave.

Still too high but it isn’t easy to undo decades of brainwashing

Pump those numbers down. Those are rookie numbers.

Many people still think "both sides" though

The zionist nazi state has no right to exist. Just like nazi Germany had no right to exist. A state built on ethnic cleansing, stealing peoples land and their massacre is a state which should not exist.

Yeah we broke the majority last year

So what are they going to do? This is what happens when you prop up & support ethno religious states. Don't want it then stop supporting Israel's existence.

It should read “zionists” not “Israeli” - for multiple obvious reasons.