Volkswagen has overtaken Tesla as Europe's top EV seller

Same reason Truth Social does. A bunch of idiots praying to their master.

3 year PCP deals

We might need a car at some point in the next 12 months, that's why I look online from time to time for a used BEV to get a feeling how much money we will need. I had the feeling that ID4s usually lose more value over time than ID3s, but I didn't analyse it much further than that. Roughly, the numbers I saw were new ones are 30k€ for an ID3 and 40k€ for an ID4 while you apparently can get both used for 20k€.

We'd a 211 ID4 and it was a lovely car. It was in perfect condition when we traded it in last year. How cheap are ye talking? High km on it?

What's your opinion on used ID4s from 2021ish? Used ones are surprisingly cheap to get and I'm a little unsure why that is

Why a second? Your first couldn’t have been any more than 5 years old.

Barely made a dent commercially, but put the company in a difficult financial situation where build quality was a bit lower and cars a bit more expensive for a while.

The point of these punishments should never be to kill a company, but to hurt investors, who are ultimately responsible for setting the CEOs agenda.

And, well, VW stock is still down about -80% compared to pre-dieselgate. So I would say eurocapitalism working as intended.

VW are all time cunts, but somehow their competition are even cuntier.

At the time, news reports credited the scandal with forcing VW to start investing in EVs. Without that scandal, they’d still be struggling to get started

I don't think there really are ethical car manufacturers tbh, but it's a spectrum for sure...

Especially for something that for years had a significant TAX credit.

Yeah, that's why I suspected it was easy to game.

I bet it's not, and that there are clear regulations for it.

That's the way things usually are with such classifications.

Especially for something that for years had a significant TAX credit.

That seems arbitrary.

I think EU needs to recognize it as a hybrid, so no.

(The tariffs vary based on how much state funding the brand has received), but if they have hybrids, they can sell them without tariff. The tariffs are only on BEV.

So all BYD has to do is the absolute minimum to make a BEV into a hybrid. So like, a model aircraft engine and a bike dynamo? It doesn't have to charge the batteries *well*. And you can put it on a module that can be easily removed. Maybe sell the car with a little display case for the removed module, just to be extra cheeky.

AFAIK the Tariff in EU on BYD BEV is 13% (The tariffs vary based on how much state funding the brand has received), but if they have hybrids, they can sell them without tariff. The tariffs are only on BEV.

I dont think their sales would explode if the tariffs were removed. Many people are still cautious about Chinese cars, and some simply don't want a car made in China.

I don't go there anymore so I don't know 🤷

300km+ range for the Leaf these days and they've got the Ariya that has over 400km of range, but I just checked and they don't seem to offer either in Australia...

Guess you're truly stuck with Chinese and Korean models then...

Like what?

Korea has a few (Hyundai, Kia / same,same) but the only Japanese options are [P]HEV or the Toyota BZ4X which is... ugly... if it didn't have a Toyota badge I don't think they'd sell any of them. Few old Leafs still hanging in there, but if you want to go more than 100k at a time that's them ruled out.

What about Japanese options?

Plenty of things have been tried.

Like communism has been tried multiple times. Every time was an unmitigated fucking disaster.

Nice try but true capitalists with economics degrees hate capitalism. There simply is no other system ever attempted.

China's capitalist move is to operate these electric car companies at or near a loss to push competitors out of the markets which would be unsustainable if they had to worry about human rights in the process.

"Anyone who supports Tesla is now a Tankie. Anyone who is anti-Tarrifs is now a Tankie. Anyone who wants anything anti-Trump is a Tankie."

For the moment he had shut his ears to the remoter noises and was listening to the stuff that streamed out of the telescreen. It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grammes a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be REDUCED to twenty grammes a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.

Don't want to protect elon musk's swastikar LLC with tariffs? Must be a tankie! Want to buy a cheap electric vehicle? tankie!

Fuck the Tankies fuck communism entirely, I just got back from Cambodia, got an economics degree and like capitalism, China's a bunch of dickheads.

BYD is going to change the world.

It's the classic incumbents move slow into new tech. Added with government investment, low labour costs, access to raw materials/adjacent industries, hungry growth focused companies, semi crazy workforce.

I haven't drove a BYD or even a electric car for that matter but reading the stats things are going to move fast and the rate they move is going to increase. I can see all the west companies largely losing their overseas market, other than luxury, inside cities. The world's moved on and people don't realise.

Eh... What are you going on about? Dumping is wrong no matter who does it and there's more than Tesla and Chinese offerings on the market.

So, since china is evil and wrong for making an affordable car when elon doesn't want them to, who is allowed to make an affordable electric car?

Where did you see me mention that it's ok for the US to do it?

They're doing a lot of exploitation in Africa. Look it up if you truly haven't heard

The issue is the way they're trying to put an end to it. A plan like the government giving priority to local manufacturers and forcing international bidders to build factories in the country is one thing. Imposing tariffs without any plans to compensate locally is just plain dumb.

On the other hand, the right in America is in the process of destroying globalism and is rightly mocked for it because they themselves are suffering the worst.

"They're much cheaper than comparable cars!"

People never think about where the savings come from, as long as they can buy stuff.

Seeing people who call themselves left wing defending globalism will always be funny to people like me who are left wing and were protesting against it back in the day.

Damn I have not heard about the Chinese enslaving black Africans to work at plantations yet.

Yes, China dumps EVs on other markets.

But here are some extra insights to consider about the issue:

• To curb dumping, many countries already have, or are introducing, high tariffs against Chinese EVs. Biden had a 100% tariff on EVs, Canada is 100%, India is 70-100%, the EU is up to 45%, Brazil is ramping up to 35%, etc.

• Around 90% of all EVs China produces are sold in China. So even if EV dumping ends, it'll have only a minor effect on production

• Dumping is caused by over supply of Chinese EVs at the moment. Some countries, like the US under Trump policies, are deliberately attempting to drive down EV demand, further adding to the issue. And as with all markets, over supply can't be sustained indefinitely, so it's predicted that multiple Chinese EV manufacturers will go under or merge. This is normal in evolving markets

• China is innovating much faster with EV tech, especially with battery technology. Meanwhile the US under Trump is removing incentives for EV production and ownership, and causing significant market uncertainty. This will have a far greater effect on Chinese dominance of the technology than dumping

• China is in the majority of countries in offering government subsidies and tax breaks for emerging products, especially on things like R&D and infrastructure

• The US and other countries also dump products on a significantly larger scale. For example, the US government subsidizes corn which is sold to world markets under production cost. Exports of corn from the US in 2024 were ~$14 billion, while Chinese EV exports were under $5 billion

None of this is intended to condone China or any country dumping products, but as a warning about having overly simplified reactions to an issue without understanding the bigger picture.

Maybe the US should subsidize more renewable and battery manufacturing inside its borders.

https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/renewable/trump-administration-cancels-clean-energy-grants-as-it-prioritises-fossil-fuels/119687122

Oh.

Also slave labor.

If auto subsidies are dumping, the US has been dumping for ages.

That ship has sailed, like 50 years ago

If you don't consider the impact that sending yet more manufacturing jobs to China will have in the long run and the fact that they have great value because what China is doing is called dumping and the goal is for them to have a monopoly so they can eventually increase prices without having any competitors.

I've seen some videos on them. They look pretty nice but I worry about how they hold up and the build quality, as I would any relatively unestablished brand.

I only brought them up because I saw a news report that their dealerships are popping up and their starting price is much lower than Tesla. Like €17000.

Can't speak for other countries, but in Australia BYD is smashing it.

They represent incredible value for money and it's not like we've got a local industry to protect - our conservative government made sure of that.

We're already the world's dumping ground for shit vehicles that don't meet emissions standards, so having a non-Elon Musk EV alternative is something people are grabbing with both hands. We bought a BYD Seal Performance for $70k AUD a little over a year ago. For that money you get an incredibly comfortable sedan that does 500k on a charge, costs about $1 per 100km to run, and does 0-100 in 3.8 seconds.

EU vehicles are crazy overpriced by comparison, and because they try and position Mercedes / BMW / VW as luxury brands here the servicing and repair costs are through the roof. Part availability also sucks, with everything being a 6+ week lead time. We've owned European vehicles on several occasions and never again.

Not my part of lemmy, must just be Tankies or some shit.

Because they present amazing value (at Chinese prices) and really advanced battery technology.

It’s not just Lemmy. Also Reddit

Chinese electric cars are great value.

Well, they do make pretty nice cars.. I have a dolphin, and it is great value for the money :)

No worries, I think it's Finnish anyway 😂

But it seems to be available in Denmark as well. This one is from Sweden, the last few were from Norway.

I mean, if I have the car full of booze on the way up, I can at least fill it up with mustard on the way back.

Looks nice, unfortunately it's pretty inconvenient for me to get to Sweden, although we have the bridge from Copenhagen, it's 1½ hour drive to get to it.

But if all goes well, we will get the Femern connection to Germany in 4 years, and that's only a ½ hour drive. 😀

You have the best stuff. If it weren't that far, just for some sauce...


Thanks, didn't know this existed

Weird here in Denmark they have a map of dealers on their homepage?

They have dealers pretty well distributred throughout the country.

https://www.bydauto.dk/find-forhandler

Same in Germany:

https://www.byd.com/de/find-store

I've seen some BYD here in Germany. No clue where they were bought though.

And that ugly Ora whatever cat. I've seen that as well 😵‍💫

https://bydeurope.com/contact

Send them an email.

I live in Germany and I would love to buy a chinese EV but I just can't find any place that sells them. You just can't really order cars online from China like you can with other products.

Freaking hell Lemmy has a huge hard on for BYD.

It’s more expensive. Like the byd Tang is like 150% the price of a vw id4

We have them, but people don't seem to be too eager to buy.

Right now they’re more expensive in Europe due to tariffs (not the Trump ones), however there were some talks about the EU reducing or removing the tariff on them in which case I can see demand exploding because of their price.

Thanks, I've had problems with that too. But I found it now searching communities, and have subscribed. 😀

Thats weird.

Turns out I have no idea how to link to communities. Maybe if I link to a post in that community you can see what I mean.

I'm on lemm.ee so I guess thats why that link comes up. But when I click on the community the previous link I sent is written at the top.

https://lemm.ee/post/62031137

Thanks, but it looks like some sort of mail list, I don't use that.

>In any case, thanks

You are welcome I was a bit worried my reply was a bit long.

>For the record, my point is about the EU.

Great then we are on the same level.

>Why is Romania plug-in hybrid heaven?

I don't know the situation in Romania, but I bet it's because they have tax benefits similar to BEV, but a hybrid is cheaper to make, because the most expensive part in a BEV is the battery, and a plugin can use a (very) small battery, and Romania is not a rich country by EU standards. Also the plugin hybrid is very flexible, and can be used just like a normal ICE car, when there are no chargers around. But there may also be other reasons, like AFAIK Romania is among the countries that have the highest degree of house owners in EU, and charging a Hybrid at home is cheap and may for many be enough for daily use, and if the price of a hybrid and ICE is similar, there are some savings there for the hybrid.

Overall I have to say there are more Hybrids sold in EU than I expected?

>Why is Portugal so much higher than Spain?

IDK for sure, but most likely because they have better EV tax credits in Portugal than in Spain.

>I bet the Tesla dominance thing is also weirdly spread.

Absolutely, the drop in Tesla sales in Europe varies widely, Germany is the most dramatic 62% for Q1, but Italy it was only down 6,8% and UK it was UP! 6%.

Just like these percentage changes vary wildly, I bet the marketshare does too.

https://electrek.co/2025/04/09/tesla-sales-are-down-in-every-single-european-country-except-the-uk-heres-why/

So in EU there are huge regional differences, just like there is in USA, where California is by far the biggest market.

And China is way more differentiated, and so it is globally.

Finally data! Fig 2 in your link tells the entire story, I believe.

For the record, my point *is* about the EU. The idea I'm trying to impress is that respondents to this thread seem to look at EV positioning and penetration globally, but if you're just looking at the EU that will be very different than North America, and the perspective people keep repeating seems very, very, VERY North American to me.

No wonder that's the case, because yeah, the differences are huge, as you say. Not just for overall penetration, raging from 90% to 5% of all cars registered in your chart. Also in the types of EVs. Plug-in hybrid goes from 10-ish percent of new EVs in Norway to 75%-ish of all EVs in Romania. That's a big swing (and some egg on grumpy "plug-in-hybrids-are-no-longer-a-concern guy up the thread).

The spread is also... consistently inconsistent? Northern countries seem to definitely take the lead, but the rest is strange. Why is Portugal so much higher than Spain? Why is Romania plug-in hybrid heaven? Why is there such a sudden break of almost 10 % between the top and the bottom half of the table?

And that's even before we try to break it down by brand. I bet the Tesla dominance thing is also weirdly spread. Would love to know if there is a correlation with how those two numbers shake out one way or the other.

In any case, thanks for looking that up and being, astonishingly, the first person to actually check their assumptions in this whole thread.

This thread is about EU!

Mostly my perspective on the technology side is global, but this is general for Europe, but where developments start from the north and the south and east are a bit behind, I'm located in Denmark.

There are American brands I don't mention, because they are specific to USA only like Rivian and Lucid. There are also Japanese brands I don't mention because although Nissan started early, they have failed a lot, and is only now catching up, Toyota and Honda has been very slow too, but have new models out this year that are good.

The Tesla (technological) lead in 2012 with the model S was global. Obviously the lead in sales was only for the countries where it was sold. Like USA, Canada, Scandinavia as the earliest markets. I think it was first in 2018 Tesla started in China.

>You couldn’t buy a Tesla at all where I lived at the time.

There are still places like India where you can't buy a Tesla.

But as I stated above, the center of all of this is the OP post that is about EV sales in EU.

Here's a chart with the EV sales by country in EU:

https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/new-registrations-of-electric-vehicles

If you are in Norway you are 20 times as likely to see an EV compared to if you are in Poland.

>the EV market isn’t globally uniform

Obviously it isn't, an EV is expensive, and it requires electric grid infrastructure to use. Also tax incentives are very different.

We can't tell you how things are compared to where you are, when you don't tell us.

I found your post interesting found another community from you.

Just wondered if you ever post on https://energy@slrpnk.net/ with batteries being so integral to cars and energy seems like a good overlap and would like to see more in depth comments on energy.

See, again what I'm missing from that statement is location.

Tesla had a lead where? You couldn't buy a Tesla at all where I lived at the time. Visiting North America everybody wanted one and I knew multiple people who did have one, but there were even more European EVs there than in Europe. First BMW i series I saw was in Canada. Last one, too.

So when did all of this reach Europe? Where in Europe? How fast did it grow in some parts versus others? Was it inconsistently fast but Tesla was ahead everywhere consistently or was the Tesla growth desynched from EV growth in general?

People are feeding me very reductive one-size-fits-all views of the EV market as a global thing in this thread while also giving me very good reason to suspect the EV market isn't globally uniform (or even uniform across Europe, for that matter) at the same time, and no resources to tell which is which beyond anecdotal observation.

Tesla had a HUGE lead when they started to sell the model S in 2012, and many places there were significant tax incentives to buy one. Back then every competitor to Tesla had really poor range, and they were generally very small city cars. The Tesla model S was a giant leap forward for electric cars (BEV).

The hybrids were never very popular, it was basically a misstep by traditional makers, probably an attempt to leverage their know how on making ICE cars, and use that to make a "semi electric". The popularity they achieved was probably mostly because many places they enjoyed similar tax incentives to "real" electric cars (BEV).

Now many brands have caught up with Tesla and a popular in Europe, like Hyundai/KIA, VW group, BMW, Mercedes, Stelantis, Renault, Volvo, Polestar, and even Chinese cars like BYD, Xpeng and MG.

So there is lots of competition today, but IMO the first good alternative for a reasonable price here was the Hyundai Kona. I think it's only about 5 years ago the other makers began to catch up to Tesla.

And now they are beginning to surpass Tesla in different ways. This was made easier by Tesla because they have failed to develop to improve their cars. Tesla model Y is 5 years old now, and they only came out with a facelift version this year!

For comparison European makers have a development cycle of 3 years, and China is extremely fast with 1-2 years!

Huh. And even with that Tesla was dominating the space? That's a shocker.

Besides telling me that every other manufacturer was massively screwing up the big thing that would seem to indicate is that penetration was extremely uneven. I came into the thread wanting to see a chart, I'm coming out of it wanting to see a *map*.

No, I saw a piece of data that doesn't match my experience, which meant I must be missing something, so I *asked*.

You should try it sometime, it's super useful for figuring things out. It'd help.

So you're spewing irrelevant nonsense just to ridicule people who call you out on your irrelevant nonsense by telling them you *know* it's irrelevant nonsense?

Yes, indeed it is anecdotal.

Did the sentence "In the two or three European countries I visit often you definitely see more of those, at least anecdotally" tip you off? I find that very observant.

Can confirm, my experience says there's been a massive increase in Teslas on the road in my region these last ~3 years, and lately VWs (ID3, 4, Buzz) are increasing too. There's other brands too that are also going up a little, but they're less easily identified at a glance if you don't know the models.

Or viceversa. Hence the point of even asking in the first place.

I flagged that my impression was anecdotal up front, but the most interesting takeaway of the way this thread ended up playing out is that people are super happy assuming everybody else's fragmentary data or observations are anecdotal but theirs are a typical, statistically significant sample.

Bit of an unexpected way to lose faith in humanity this fine morning, but here we all are, I suppose.

My question is why I've seen a grand total of one Tesla on the road across three countries and yet somehow it was seemingly the top EV brand

Could be that those three countries and/or the specific parts of them you traverse aren't typical for all 44 countries of Europe.


You're telling me a cool story about how the Tesla business model is supposed to work. My question is why I've seen a grand total of one Tesla on the road across three countries and yet somehow it was seemingly the top EV brand.

Troed's answer above going "Teslas and full electric EVs in general are popular in very specific regional pockets" goes much further towards answering that question, I think.

I live in Germany and wanted to buy a new car 2 years ago. I live in the city in a rented apartment. I can't charge at Work, and neither at home. So I would have to use only public charging stations , the nearest is almost 2km away. Plus, public charging stations are so expensive that you pay more per km than gas for a ICE car (excluding maintenance costs obviously)

I actually wanted to buy an EV, but since I can't charge it, even though I live in a city, I couldn't

Hey, I'll say this, if you want to have this pointless argument with someone who isn't me by just typing "TLDR" and making up some shit you have my wholehearted blessing. Beats having to comb through obnoxious quote blocks to nitpick the smaller fallacies, so go nuts.

Call me when it gets to the full-on name calling, that's always the most exciting part.

in Europe in particular there's way less charging infrastructure

That's the opposite of reality in many cases.

For example, Scandinavia, Germany, and the Benelux countries have better charging networks AND much shorter distances between major population centers than the US in general.

way more people living in apartments without the ability to set up a home charge station

Would have been relevant a decade ago, but now there's public chargers at more and more parking lots and highway rest stops plus at least one major gas station chain has chargers at every station here in Denmark.

I have no doubt that conditions are even better in places like Norway and Sweden where they started adapting much earlier than we did.

way more anxiety about charging full electric EVs as a consequence, **depending on the region**

Bolded the only part you've been right about so far.

plug-in hybrids seem like a reasonable way to bridge that gap.

They were back when the battery technology and charging infrastructure wasn't in place to support fully transitioning to EVs, but most of Europe is way ahead of you, so as a rule rather than an exception, hybrids are an unnecessary concession, Democratic Party style.

But I'm already entertaining this conversation way more than I want, because it's going to lead off on a tangent and I don't want to go on that tangent and we're going to end up in how public transport is the real answer and there are millions of threads here to go rehash that conversation

TL;DR: you're wrong and tired of trying to justify your false assumptions, so you try to preempt the logic conclusion that many have reached by implying that it's wrong and/or or tedious.

Cool.

So, anyway.

I mean, plug-in hybrids are what they are, and in Europe in particular there's way less charging infrastructure, way more people living in apartments without the ability to set up a home charge station and way more anxiety about charging full electric EVs as a consequence, depending on the region. Hybrids are whatever, plug-in hybrids seem like a reasonable way to bridge that gap.

But I'm already entertaining this conversation way more than I want, because it's going to lead off on a tangent and I don't want to go on that tangent and we're going to end up in how public transport is the real answer and there are millions of threads here to go rehash that conversation.

So anyway.

So the hybrid in the name refers to the combined function as a vehicle and a psychological crutch? Would that make those aggressive looking pickup trucks hybrids as well?

Plug-in hybrids alleviate range anxiety.

A plug-in hybrid is cool, to me, in that I can charge it and use it as pure EV for my daily commutes, but if I forget/am unable to charge it it don't have to worry for a second. And I don't need to worry about the range on my 500km roundtrip to my cabin (full charge + full tank equals ~1100km range on my Prius).

Also, fuel consumption is relatively low, so whenever I do have to burn fuel I'm not breaking the bank.

In my view it's mostly about regenerative braking, to get away from cvts (I can't see how those things will last), more torque from the electric motor, more fuel efficient Atkinson cycle.

Gosh, i have been rooting for that since i can vote, and that is more than 20 years now

I understand, and really hope you will be able to get rid of Orban so that the economic conditions in Hungary can get (much) closer to the EU mean.

Fair. That's the problem of reporting about Europe or even just the EU as a unit. Big place, lots of cultural differences, lots of size differences in economies and populations across those cultures.

I never really understood the deal about hybrids anyway. To me, it just seems like the worst of both worlds. One of the coolest things about EVs is that you can just charge it at home but wirth a hybrid you need to charge it in addition to also driving to the gas station to fill up the tank. The battery is also way smaller, so the electric engine doesn't take you very far anyway. And whatever engine you're using, you always have to carry the weight of the other system. And since you have both, doesn't that mean that there's way more that can break too?

And that's just talking about plug-in hybrids, the ones that generate electricity using a combustion engine just seem like ICE vehicles with extra steps.

I'd prefer a Swedish salary over my hungarian, while we are at it

/s, obviously

Don't know about "London City techbros and finance bros" but in Sweden and Norway we prefer pure EV over hybrids.

>Tesla was the top EV seller in Europe? I’m surprised.

Not only that, A few years ago, Tesla was as big as all the rest combined!

I’m guessing the top electric-only vehicle excluding hybrids and plug-in hybrids?

That's how it should be, but in most cases it's not. 100% battery is called BEV now. But BEV sales have far surpassed plugin Hybrid (PHEV).

IMO a Hybrid plugin or not is NOT electric just as it is NOT an ICE, it's a hybrid of the 2! But Hybrids are generally counted as EV.

Tesla understood that _Batteries are expensive so let's make a fancy car so customer are OK to pay for the batteries_ main brand either didn't have an EV or tried to make a cheap electric car, cutting down the autonomy (e.g. the Renault Zoe). Add the whole _We're a progressive company, so we give Tesla rather than diesel mercedes to our executive_ and Tesla was the main player on the niche market for a decade.

However, as electric car stop being a Niche, every brand has now several electrical models, from a affordable urban one_ to a comfortable and fancy one, If you can afford a Mercedes, Tesla is still an option (but then there is Musk personality not helping) but if you ain't rich, you can go to Volkswagen or Renault depending on how broke you are

Your point is purely anecdotal. I see lots of Teslas where I live, so there's that. I also see more BEVs than PHEVs, which is also in line with sales figures.

So, to be blunt, I think your perception is skewed or wrong.

Hybrids are not electric vehicles.

They are a thing of the past to appease the „range anxiety“ crazed people.

They maybe had a justification to exist until 6 or 7 years ago.

It was always wrong to count those as true electric vehicles.

In fact it's even more crazy if you consider VW group:

Tesla Total 53,237

VW Group:

VW 65,679

Audi 34,739

Skoda 26,578

Cupra (SEAT) 18,878

Porsche 9,929

VW Group total 155,803

ratio 155803/53237 = 2.93

**VW group has almost 3 times higher sales than Tesal!!**

https://www.carscoops.com/2025/04/vw-finally-beats-tesla-outselling-it-in-q1-ev-sales-in-europe/

PS:

**Stellantis:**

Peugeot 24,397

Citroen 16,367

Opel 13,612

FIAT 6,825

**Stellantis Total 61,201**

Stellantis manages to clearly beat Tesla too!!

Edit: I forgot FIAT in the Stellantis numbers.


Watch out for BYD from China.

Tesla was the top EV seller in Europe? I'm surprised.

I'm guessing the top electric-only vehicle excluding hybrids and plug-in hybrids? In the two or three European countries I visit often you definitely see more of those, at least anecdotally. But maybe London City techbros and finance bros outweight everybody else? That seems plausible.

I have to say, I find all of these reports and investor analyses on Tesla's PR woes way too optimistic about how well they'll recover if and when Musk "steps away from the government". I really don't think that genie is going back in the bottle, guys.

On my second ID4, and the wife has our first ID3. Lovely cars to drive, will never go back to an ice car again.

Somewhat amazed they've rebounded this much given the VW emission scandal some years back. Guess it wasn't that brand-damaging after all.

After Krasnov was elected, all big ticket items are on hold for at least two years. Bravo Volkswagen Group kicking Tesla in the nutsacks. Carry on!

“What a tweest!”

Now they could deal with their quality management in terms of software as a next, huge leap.

Although I love the positivity, this is more a story about Tesla than VW.

Wow that Herbert Diess guy was right!

Yet teslas stock is skyrocketing….how is this happening?!!?

I have always been a Toyota guy, and recently driving a Toyota corolla hybrid made me want that car.