China is wooing Europe with technology, investments - and a smile. But anyone who looks behind China's rhetoric will recognize the conditions: no criticism, no questions, no objections.

Unless I'm missing something, China is doing a lot of trade with Russia in goods that help the Russians build their own military gear...

whereas, under Biden, the US was doing that with Ukraine, and basically also just directly sending them something like half our mothball reserve military equipment, lots of ammo and arty shells, and a good deal of fancy newer stuff (HIMARS), and also very actively leveraging our intelligence assets/network to directly assist in operational planning.

In fact, Trump has about faced so extremely hard that the EU could potentially make a trade deal with China that includes the EU buying a whole lot of shit they had been selling to Russia, so that the EU can better supply its now increasingly levels of / plans for its own military production while choking off Russia's ability to do the same.

>Did China just completely abandon and betray the most succesful military alliance in the modern era… in the middle of an active war involving that alliance?

China is a decisive supporter of Russia in this war.

HEY! 😡 You better get in line and show your patriotic hatred for the people who built your country! Don’t you for ONE SECOND view them as people and treat them accordingly! It’ll be a cold day in hell when I don’t get to exploit Chinese people to death. 😡🇺🇸🇪🇺

How about neither? Both China and the USA have proven themselves to be unreliable trade partners. In fact, a lack of reliability is inherent in any trade relationship. The conventional theory is that trade brings prosperity (true!) and governments want to maintain that prosperity, so they have a (literally) vested interest in preserving that - and this latter part is not so true anymore these days. (We all know why of course, it's because the prosperity is not shared equally in the USA, and China is unstable because it's a totalitarian state that will happily immolate itself in order to save face - but this is besides the point.)

The important point is that while trade is nice because it brings greater prosperity, it also comes with security risks and as we move into a new age of geopolitics, we need to be aware of this and find a better balance between trade and security. It will be hard, because it's so easy to be greedy and focus only on economics, but hopefully we will continue learning the lesson of finding this balance as we see more and more crazy things unfold over the course of this decade.

Trump is trying push a whole pick sides narative on the world, that seems pretty ignorant to actual reality, and just ends up with everyone more fractured and weak.

That's because he can't think in 3D. Boyo is pretty limited in his worldview...

no, America is a month or two from the teeth punching

Big difference: they are smarter. So they use so much lube when they get you from behind that you almost don't feel it

Just to be clear, you think that being wooed with enticing promises, and being sucker punched in the teeth and told to bow down, are the same thing?

PRC is a lot less likely to crash your markets and then not return your calls afterwards.

Lmao ok that got me

Right, we should probably ask some Chinese citizens

Is there any one of them here?

If you wanted to find this info you easily can.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chinese+citizens+intimidated+and+disappeared+for+criticism+of+ccp&t=fpas&ia=web

You're an adult and should be capable of doing your own research.

China has a very long history of silencing dissenters, to this day they refuse to aknowledge the Tiananmen Square Massacre ever happened despite there being recordings.

In China if you did that police would show up at your door to intimidate you, if you did it again you and your family would dissappear

Any proof of this? Because I got recent proof of this sort of stuff happening in America.

Well no police showed up at my door for it, and my family is still alive.

In China if you did that police would show up at your door to intimidate you, if you did it again you and your family would dissappear

This is the fundamental difference that fascist sympathizers are trying to skirt around

ehemmmmm....

Trump Orders DOJ To Investigate Prominent Critic in Shocking Oval Office Remarks: ‘I Think He’s Guilty of Treason’

Trump signs order targeting law firm behind $787.5m Fox defamation suit

But you've been probably silently disconnected from X, put in a fake X clone, and you don't even notice it

I do lol

Ive sent @s and DMs to the official Whitehouse Twitter account telling them they are enabling a fascist oligarchy and telling them they aren't democratically elected and will be removed from power by the American people.

Literally nothing happened.

I didn't even get a message on Twitter.

I've never said that.

Yet.

That is absolutely true in China, too, I can tweet to Trump that he's a dictator and the police won't show up at my house and disappear my family.

I just saw an article about Trump accusing someone of possible treason for criticism.

https://lemmy.world/post/28001455

We'll have to see how it plays out.

In the beginning, even after the "Machtergreifung", it was fairly ok to insult Hitler and make fun of the Nazis. They thought, its a form of venting for the population, preventing REAL resistance. Though, this changed later. There is a good ARTE documentary about this "Humor unterm Hakenkreuz".

So, regarding the US... just wait a while...

do you want to test your theory?

Exactly... just as bad but professionally done

Lol, no, you just don't know what the insults, slurs, and rude words mean.

The difference is in the US I can tweet at the presidential account calling him a dictator and the police won't show up at my house and dissapear my family

Yes, even these days

the USA offer: less morality, less market

Europe needs a different partner

Well I mean, you'll be hard pressed to find any empire in history who didn't dab in a little bit of genocide here and there, it's not like european countries have a monopoly here.

Name me a civilization that didn't commit genocide, and you'll have found a civilization that didn't have the chance to do it...

Because all other countries of course are kisses and hugs correct? For context the peaceful Japan, as soon as it got military supremacy embraced in genocidal campaigns twice. The Arab had one of the longest, largest slavery network in history, China has probably the record for most deaths overall. And the list goes on.

The fact that the strong oppress the weak is human nature. On the opposite I would actually argue that the true change in government came from western civilization: the only one to start and success in abolishing slavery for example. The only one to invent and promote democracy.

Do you realize how you're quite literally advocating for genocide, and you see absolutely nothing wrong with that?

How are you any different from Europeans? Because you've been victim of oppression doesn't make you any less likely to oppress others when given the chance, as you're clearly demonstrating.

Cool

All those people are dead. Not only the part of history you know about, but also all of the other history you don't have a clue about.

Everyone has perished.

Now we just look at the current world and what the state of it is.

If you're going to be xenophobic about Europe, be my guest, but you're just going to be bitter and accomplish nothing with it.

The EU has an income inequality gini of 0,29. We are the best in the whole world in solidarity. That's just a fact.

USA has it at 0,42. China has it at 0,36.

China has barely any refugees, they think we are weak to have accepted refugees.

USA gives too much power to their president. They'll learn from this.

Indonesia's president is trying to put military into the government policy positions.

Myanmar is going batshit crazy.

Syria is fucked up.

Libya is fucked up.

Egypt has no women rights.

Israel is going full nazi

Russia is going full imperialist

Brazil has homicide rates like Ukraine

Etc etc

You seem like you aren't a super nice person.

With ideias like that you sure ain't that different from those white colonialist.

That's great, buddy

Well well well. Won't you look at who would have done exactly the same thing as the european empires did, if they had the chance?

You're not mad that it happened at all, you're mad that it happened to **you**. Hypocrite.

The EU was founded in 1993 and has never committed a genocide, as far as I know.

Is that a challenge? 🤨

The problem here is: the EU currently works quite well overall for its citizens, precisely because there isn't really one big player. It is considerably more difficult to commit crimes and atrocities on the scale of the US, Russia and China when you're small, weak, and all your close allies are watching you. I don't have any doubts that a united EU, a federation perhaps, like it was originally intended, would be the greatest power the world has ever seen. But it would come at a great cost to all of its citizens. In anywhere between 50-250 years it would most likely develop into an empire similar to the ones we have right now. Unless we could figure out some sort of new structure to combat these challenges, which in itself is a major undertaking.

The EU just got overthrown after dominating the world and making the world infinitely worse.

Europeans can never be global leaders ever again after performing the worst genocides in history and performing the most slavery in history, both on scales unimaginable in the modern world.

The supply of leading world economies who are friendly and democratic is now * does some quick math * zero.

my comment an exactly response to that too. some people are just opposed to authoritarian monopols uknow. Better to seek the option without these if u can

Where was the CCP during the Korean War? Vietnam war? Who violently annexed Tibet? Who is constantly threatening Taiwan, building phony islands to claim Philippine, Vietnamese, and Malaysian territory?

Now they’re capturing Chinese soldiers in Ukraine, using Russia as a proxy against the west.

Not exactly doves.

I mean, shall we look at all countries' track record of starting direct or proxy wars in the last 70 years or so to determine who's more likely to attack?

*with for some reason the entire KGB backing him

Until it attacks

Because you can't get past your minor differences and unite.

A truly united EU would dominate the world, but y'all want to maintain individual sovereignty over foreign affairs.

Because despite having a so-called union Europe is about as united as a relatively disciplined herd of cats and has acute far right-osis. There are pretty big obstacles standing in the face of a Europe that can compete with America and China and not having enough weapons is only one of them.

China is predictable.

US used to be, but now it seems they can be taken over by the whims of a single deranged man

China is already an autocracy, which always brings greater stability (the regime cannot drastically change with the result of the next elections), but it also increases the chances of abuse of power. For some it makes little difference, for others it doesn't. For the undecided, the one who offers more in return will win.

Europe needs to create new industries and develop existing ones, while distancing itself from the world's major powers. But we won't be able to manufacture here at affordable prices, so we could look for alternatives like the countries of North Africa, for example. I think China simply won't be as interested in developing a relationship in this way, since they already produce a lot of goods by themselves. In short, we need to be as generous as possible with our new allies.

I mean, if Europe cannot guarantee the peace and stability of their allies or themselves, why should other countries trust them over China for example?

What guarantee did the Finns have that the Swedes won't just conquer them again? The Baltics that they won't just, *again*, be ground up between the millstones of larger powers?

Europe is stock-full of colonised people. Don't expect French or German or Portuguese or Spanish ambassadors, expect Latvians.

Unfortunately, there are no guarantees in this world. We do not even have the guarantee here in the EU that we will preserve our democratic systems, that we will not succumb to the far-right, to the neo-Nazis. In Germany alone, in recent polls, the AfD has grown and is now ahead in voting intentions, and the new Coalition government has not even taken office yet. Even seeing all the nonsense and chaos that the Trump administration has sown in America in just a few months, this has not discouraged German voters from a party of the same political line supported and financed by the same group of people. We cannot guarantee that we will not install far-right governments in our potential new allies, we cannot guarantee that they will not be destabilised, exploited or even worse. We cannot even guarantee that we will not do the same to ourselves.

Preventing this is an eternal battle that requires a certain leap of faith from everyone. This idea, for our own good, must become a fundamental part of our culture! We must unite the Democratic Forces of our countries and theirs in an eternal struggle against tyranny. We just cannot fall into the error of thinking that there are guarantees, this is a false sense of security that allows these far-right movements to grow. You may have even won great battles, but the war always continues. We can at least try to support their development and foster prosperity in good faith, not let them fall behind. Struggle, struggle, struggle ad aeternum!

There's still a lot of beef with Europe in both Latin America and Africa.

Even if you ignore colonialism, Europe's cold war era track record in those areas is... Not good to say the least.

What's the guarantee that Europe will actually bring peace and stability and not just install far-right dictators when it's convenient for them?

Exhibit A

The problem is that China and the US have about half of the world's wealth. The EU (plus uk and other EEA) control another quarter. So as annoying as it is, the EU can either negotiate with one country (USA/China) or 160+ (the rest of the world) to achieve the same financial gain. Of course economics are not everything, but when you understand the picture above, you can start seeing the problem.

those are the colonies. europe has already been extracting resources for cheap here for a while.

Sounds like what NAFTA did until some Cheetos gummed up the works.

Where can I vote for you for president of the world?

I like this. I'll give it deeper thought.

You just listed three Chinese neocolonies. China has already beaten Europe to the punch on investing in global trade partners by a few decades, and they were already smart enough to focus on South America and Africa.

Ultimately that's your answer as to why Europe won't be able to have a closed economy on their own terms; because they're 10 years too late.

Well, there is one way, and most of us would welcome it at this point, lol.

By itself, no

what do you mean? Europe cant "repair" the US

More like less repairable

you mean, China is more predictable?

*RemindMe! 4 years*

The world is much bigger than just China or the United States. Perhaps Brazil and South America in general are the best candidates for better partners. Africa too, if it develops.

The countries of the European Union need to integrate more and form new alliances outside the two giants.

Just imagine: in a Europe with a single fiscal policy and a shared debt, where the euro is the dominant global currency, you could invest in Portugal or Finland in the same simple way. We would design in Europe, produce in North Africa (these countries would stabilize, develop and there would be no illegal immigrants sailing dangerously through here; later, when they develop sufficiently economically and culturally, we could even open the doors to free movement; Mare Nostrum!) and sell in South America and elsewhere. We should be the ones dictating to China and the United States the conditions for better economic cooperation, not the other way around. We should be the Global Power!

The US can do a 180 in 4 years. China: not so much

This is not about the moral high ground at all. Dictatorships are tearing the EU apart much harder than the EU itself ever could without their "help". It's a bad deal to rely on any of them too much.

Well, EU is accepting of Israeli perpetrated genocide, so I don't see them not having a problem with Chinese ones

I think the EU has largely abandoned the high road with the moralizing finger and just focuses on navigating this world without imploding or tearing itself apart. The moral high ground hardly changed the world for the better so better to just focus on what's required for your own stability and prosperity.

I am sure that Europe was "too small to be an adversary" during the Boxer Rebellion too *wink*

Or with EU and Russian gas before they invaded Ukraine.

Exactly like with the US

Read my other comment.

Edit: I just read your other comments talking that Europe should be a third world country for compensation, that we are all white colonialists and fascist enablers etc.

Ergo instead of having a destined-to-fail attempt of a reasonable discussion, I just have one thing left to say: fuck off, troll.

What are you talking about? The EU has around 450 million inhabitants and is one of the richest regions in the world and we have a single market economy. Everybody wants in. There's a reason even Apple complies with the USB-C regulations.

Set standards, enforce them

That's what the supply chain act is about. Multinational companies are responsible for the human rights situation in the countries they source stuff from. Instead of outsourcing human rights abuses we're not outsourcing human rights enforcement (abroad) by making companies explicitly liable also for their contractors, they can't turn a blind eye, they have to do due diligence.

Tiered strategies get my approval. We can start from Hungary.

That only works if you have enough incentive to trade. The EU simply isn't that valuable.

I'd say it's time to set that standard. In Germany, the term "value based foreign policy" floats around every now and then and IMHO, it should be well defined and extended to trade policy.

Set standards, enforce them, and we could even encourage developing such values by linking trade volume to how well those values are developed. You stop genociding? Great, let's trade a little. You democratize? Great, let's trade a little more. You want to trade even more? Okay, stop criminalizing your gays.

And yes, supporting such developments with foreign aid should not be undervalued either. Building schools and such.

And yes, that will work better if we adhere to our own values, improve upon them and sanction people like organ in our midst. We need to do that, too.

But that is the way to a better future for all humanity (and the rest of the planet). Also, this is not referring to trade with China only but global trade.

I agree with the list, but we never had that standard before so it would be difficult to start now.

The economic support to Russia is pressing to say the least and it could actually be used as a token, since China could look for slightly higher prices elsewhere while maintaining their trade money.

EU trades with Israel.

How many bombing campaigns has China done on Uighur refugee camps?

That's too little.

Stop genociding Uighurs, stop being a totalitarian police state, stop surveiling and pressuring Chinese abroad, become a democracy and we can start talking.

I'm a fool

!kill me

Greenland

US hasn't threaten to annex European countries (yet)

Now that I think about it it's actually weird because Canada, which should theoretically be the most subservient of US allies, has demonstrated more backbone than Europe.

That was exactly my thought. The US is literally calling the EU "pathetic", and the EU are still playing it nice, because they should under no circumstances criticize the US.

Why should Europe leave the influence of the US just to bow to another hegemon? Why shouldn't we do our own thing?

Sounds like how toxic relationships start.

If this is the bar, Europe wouldn't even trade with itself. Our biggest trade partner is calling us Pathetic while threatening to invade us and helping the genocide of an entire group of people.

We're royally fucked, we either downgrade our lifestyle (which would be good for the environment) or we have to keep making deals with the devil. China just happens to be the devil we know, vs the 3 faced US.

So... Same as the US these days. Minus the insults, slurs and rudeness.

and this is different to dealing the MAGA USA how?

the Chinese offer: **less morality**, more market

yeah okay sure

So... same as making deals with MAGA then.

This is a genuinely interesting article about global politics, but I sorta get the impression there's this underlying "Does Europe pick US or China as a trade partner?" question at the heart of it.

Seems like this pulls into very 1 dimensional view, and surely the answer is just, Europe should be sceptical of China and USA's motives, trade wherever it's beneficial, and push for the things it values (positive take would be workers rights, renewable energy etc).

Trump is trying push a whole pick sides narative on the world, that seems pretty ignorant to actual reality, and just ends up with everyone more fractured and weak.

As an American:

Is China threatening to invade Greenland?

Did China just completely abandon and betray the most succesful military alliance in the modern era... in the middle of an active war involving that alliance?

>Victor Gao says that Europe is too small to be an adversary.

Uh... *Gestures at America and also all of post-Medieval European history*?

Woke Tariff Trump or Cheap goods Xi ... hmm

Tarifs and trade wars are bad and all that, however the way Europe is cozying up to BRICS states is worrying. There‘s still an all out military war going on in Ukraine in part because Europe has become too comfortable relying on dictators. We‘ve gone back and forth with Chinese charm offensives and threats too many times to be naive about this.

Remember what our reliance on Russia is costing us. Contemplate what our even stronger reliance on China will cost us because one day we‘ll have to pay that piper too.

So essentially the same thing as the US 50 years ago? And in some ways, kind of like Russia 200 years ago? Except it's progressively getting more civil.

Dealing with superpowers and empires is always unpleasant, and everyone would rather stay as far away from them as possible, but it's not always and option. Well, it seems we either continue the cycle, and swap US partnership for China partnership (then probably same thing again in a couple decades), or we break the cycle somehow.

Sure, stop buying Russian oil and you have a deal, Winnie.

!boycottchina@sopuli.xyz