France 'determined' to recognise Palestinian state: foreign minister

With all EU members having to agree to suspend the agreement, this is going to take some time. Most certainly Germany has to agree with it and it does not look like they want to do it. Even if that happens Hungary has to be bribed as well.

Ty for the point about the UN conference timeline, I did not know that.

I really hope we are gonna support it all the way and that it's gonna economically and politically hurt Netanyaou's regime 🤞🤞 but I'm not holding my breath. May the future prove me wrong :)

There is apparently an UN conference in June, at which they want to do it for whatever reason. To put it another way it is a threat towards Israel.

As is looking into the EU Israel association agreement. Stoping that would actually hurt Israel and France is supporting that.

Yeah fair enough. It's just what I read at the time of our country doing the recognition.

I wasn't aware of the South Sudan example. It's a good one. Must read more on it.

The world’s newest country (South Sudan) was recognised by France and many others on the day it declared independence. Unless there is a specific legal formality only affecting immediate recognition of Palestine it just sounds like stalling. I’m sure the Palestinian Authority will forgive the delay in updating websites, you know how developers are.

I think it's actually a fairly lengthy process to recognise a new country as it's not something that happens very often. Ireland, Spain and someone else who escapes me now had to take months of form changing, website changing and all the legal nonsense after the announcement like this. I remember reading at the time that all the various things that had to happen were.

A group of people defending their lives against genocide and committing morally questionable acts is not fascism. The fact is real resistance isnt pretty, also yes I think they know that what they did was meaningless because no country is going to enforce that warrant (at least not ones Bibi would visit).

You mean, like, they've put out a warrant out on Netanyahu not because they want to sentence him but because they think it's funny, and Milosevic et all didn't get sentenced, either, it's all just a prank? Well Milosevic himself died in detention before getting sentenced but same difference.

Oh and side note the ICC is responsible for dealing with persons, the ICJ judges states.

And even *if* the ICC would be biased AF: Fascism is still bad. Do I really have to explain that to a Blåhaj.

The difference is the ICJ only punishes rebels, its clear hypocrisy. These laws of war are laws against the weak. They do nothing to stop dictators or actural genocide while complaining when people fight back.

Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity and the ICJ will just as happily convict rebels as it convicts dictators.

And that, btw, is in the interest of the rebellion: It's strategically stupid to build a rebellion on "we're the exact same except we oppress a different group of people" as your rebellion will not lead to freedom, but yet more injustice. History is full of that: The inhumanity of the rebellion will not suddenly vanish once the oppressors are gone, it will turn inwards, and the rebellion will be the oppressors of those they claimed to free.

tl;dr: Fascism bad even if it's your fascism.

Those laws are designed for two states at war and dont properly address insurrections. I think it would be absolute hypocrisy to say any revolution or insurrection needs to follow it when government's are not legally obligated to follow it towards their citizens.

All peoples have the right of resistance by all means necessary and possible.

Nope. There's still stuff like the Geneva conventions. Two wrongs don't make a right.

At this point either the thing has to run its course which doesn't seem like a good idea on the current trajectory (just *how* is Bibi still in power with how many Israelis hate him), or a DMZ following the 1967 borders gets enforced by neutral powers until cooler heads prevail. Japan or something.

One thing for sure: There can't be Israeli security without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security.

Not really even if I did it probably wouldn't come to fruition

Don't want to be provocative, just curious, do yoi have an idea aboit a solution?

I'm not as experts of the Boasnian solution (I know is going not super good but there's 3 parts involved there), but a third party could be a step further.

If let's tomorrow Israel retire, Hamas will starts its businnes as usual. A two state solution is never gonna work even if Israel plays fair on its side. Palestinians should drop the "Nakba" arguments forever and stop dreaming about impossible stuff.

And even the 'bosnian solution' is not enough, its not gonna fix problems just prolong them

What I ment is Hamas wanted this war as much as Bibi, Palestinians do not have any protection anyway.

They're two times victims, pressed from Israel (thinking about a pre-war situation), and oppressed frim is own radicalists with Iran connections.

The best solution would be a Bosnia ones. It's a weird thing ut it's anyway better then everything we saw until today. External forces protecting Palestinians from themselves, from the other arabic countries who want them has a proxy and from radical Isrealites like Bibi's friends.

Of course it's just a dream, Us will never accept that.

A very small part at this point, all things considered, and one intentionally propped up by the Israeli government for this purpose by their own admission

I got perma banned from Reddit for that, I got warned a few times first but the truth cannot and should not be denied.

the vast majority of people saying they are the same are just being hyperbolic or at worst ignorant

I agree, and accusing them blanketly of antisemitism or being fascists is not helpful. A three-day timeout, "be less hyperbolic and read up on how bad the Nazis were" is absolutely in order, though, If for no reason than to not make a habit out of hyperbole.

And then there's select few who, when confronted with even a hint of nuance, will scream "SO YOU ARE A ZIONIST WHY DO YOU LIKE EATING BABIES" and I'm not at all sad about seeing them banned. Same goes for people saying stuff like "There are no innocent Palestinians" which actually straight-up qualifies as incitement to hatred under German law.

And for the absolutists: Free speech free smeech this is still supposed to be a community (of course there's a relevant xkcd).

I agree with most of your points, I just don’t think any of them cross the threshold for what should be considered free speech. I also don’t think the default assumption should be antisemitism or holocaust denial or whatever.

The Nazis were obviously worse, but the vast majority of people saying they are the same are just being hyperbolic or at worst ignorant. The vast majority of people saying the state of Israel should be abolished (at least on western social media) do not mean “the Jews dont deserve a home” or “it should be abolished through the killing of all Israelis”. And yeah there’s no short version for the Zionism issue on this end either because it’s a word that can mean anything to different people.

But moderators are based in germany though

antisemitism as a crime which includes things like equating Israeli actions to those of Nazi Germany,

That's not antisemitism that's trivialisation of Nazi crimes. If you look at what Israel does it absolutely can be classified as genocide, the Nazis did all that... and a fuckton more. Equating the two erases that fuckton more and can thus be considered holocaust denial. "Oh they only shot people, there was no highly organised industrial campaign, no special-purpose logistics chain, the gas chambers are a myth" type of stuff. With actual Nazi methods there would not have been a single Palestinian left after two or three months.

In short: Don't deny that the Nazis were even worse and you'll be fine.

calling for the abolition of Israel

The basic idea is that genocide is not an appropriate response to genocide. If your abolition of Israel is a one-state solution with equal rights for everyone that's fine, if it involves mass expulsions, flipping the apartheid around or some such that's a no-go.

In short: Don't advocate for crimes against humanity and you'll be fine.

and being against Zionism in some cases

Zionism is a very, very broad term, it ranges from fascist Kahanites to Hippies helping Palestinians with the olive harvest so they won't get attacked by the fascists, everything in between and quite a bit laterally. It need not even involve Israel at all, but can also just mean "Jews should have a place they can call home, where they can live in peace and prosperity". By that definition Kahanites are not Zionist because fascism inherently doesn't vibe with peace and prosperity.

Opposition to Zionism can also take many forms: You might oppose specific forms of Zionism, such as the fascist ones, because they're fascists, there's religious opposition within Judaism itself (the accusation there is that Zionists are trying to force a prophecy), and then there's right-out antisemitism, "Why should Jews have a place to call home *they're Jews*". There's also antisemitic pro-Zionism, "If they have their own home then we don't have to deal with them here".

In short: ...there's no short version.

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Oh and just for the record: This all goes both ways. Plenty of people have eaten bans for denying Israel's war crimes.

The server is based in Austria though.

More genocide, more, oops we killed a thousand babies accidentaly on purpose...

I never questioned their right to exist, nor am I talking about Jews, by Israel I mean the ultra right wing nutjobs. Hopefully that clears it up :).

You're not allowed to call them Nazis, but otherwise you're good if I remember the modpost right.

Who cares because its absolutely true and if speaking the truth gets you banned then thats the price of freedom. Never back down, never give up the fight against tyranny, and we may see a better future.

Ouch, probably a ban - check the pinned post in community

Yes, at least according to their rules. The server is based in Germany though, and they have a very loose definition of antisemitism as a crime which includes things like equating Israeli actions to those of Nazi Germany, calling for the abolition of Israel and being against Zionism in some cases

Are we allowed to call Israel a genocidal fascist apartheid state here or do we get banned for that?

That is a universal right.

I don't disagree, but imagine eu started giving palestinians the same weapons as ukraine. Oof

All peoples have the right of resistance by all means necessary and possible. The struggle for Palestinian liberation is the struggle of all oppressed peoples. Furthermore the struggle of all oppressed people is the struggle of every worker. True liberation means freedom for all.

So you mean Hamas? Cause it's part of this mess we're watching now.

The people of Palestine have a right to armed resistance against those who would exterminate them.

Any day now

i heard this last year too.

And another time posturing, while afaik we didn't go back on saying that we were not going to arrest Netanyaou if he comes to visit France.

Macron's cronies virtue signaling while paving the way for the far right and fascism as usual.

Who is stopping them?

Good, one step closer towards ending this genocide. The Israeli state must be completely isolated both diplomatically and economically until they submit to demands.

important first step.

That sounds good, but what would that mean exactly? Then France recognises a palestinian state. It can't be Hamas in Gaza, but maybe Fatah in the west bank? Fatah hasn't any control over Gaza right now, so nothing there will change.