u/PugJesus

I don’t even disagree, it’s just not productive to constantly harp on this when we’ve all heard it a million times

Man, there are people who **still** believe that helping fascism win was a good idea. Look in this very comment thread, where people are openly extolling the virtues of having Trump win from a 'leftist' standpoint, and teaching those damn dirty SHITLIBS a lesson.

As long as those opinions remain widespread on here, it remains necessary to highlight just how morally repugnant they are.

A movement tried to make Palestine a relevant political issue for the electorate. It got stomped out.

No, it succeeded in its goal - making sure the fascist won.

I mean I wouldn't call it a *beacon* of democracy, but all things are relative. I picked one of the more reasonable polities in MENA with a mostly-functioning multiparty system. The alternative would've been saying I hoped for Turkiye, but, uh, considering Erdogan's behavior, I wasn't sure I wanted to make that comparison as a *positive*.

My point is simply that there is still hope for Syria to improve into something better than it was - and certainly better than some immensely calcified repressive regime like Iran or the Saudis, and that this... immensely distasteful conservative dreck does not necessarily sink that hope.

We look for Syria to take a step forward, not to become Sweden in a decade (though that would, obviously, also be immensely welcome; just less likely). Institutions are built a year at a time, a battle at a time, not all once.

It was never going to be a liberal government. The rule is conservative dreck, make no mistake, but the norm was already for burkinis and other such swimsuits to be worn. It's not a radical departure from extant behavior.

My concern, going forward, is more towards whether the government will resolve itself in a reasonably democratic way.

I'm not holding out hopes for a Tunisia, but a Jordan or Lebanon might be reasonable to cross one's fingers for.

Workers taking action, love to see it.

You’re joking right

Sorry, do you not remember who the de-facto leader of the Northern Alliance was?

Things the US will forget:

Korean War (3mil civilian dead)

Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)

Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)

Imagine thinking that the US has forgotten any of these when they're a constantly pressure on the cultural zeitgeist even literal decades later. Or, for that matter, that the Korean War is in any way comparable.

Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)

Twice? Christ, tell me you aren't talking about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Not to mention that the 'overthrow' of 'Afghanistan' the second time would rely on recognizing the Taliban, and not the democratically-oriented Northern Alliance which was fighting them at the time, as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

Yes yes I understand why Jolani needs to work with a genocidal state which openly says it wants to annex Syria and is doing it now. Very smart!

Weren't you **just** advocating for Jolani to side with Iran, a state which quite openly supported genocide with military force in Syria out of a desire to keep it as a puppet state, and which is **still** attempting to overthrow the current Syrian government in order to replace it with their puppet?

Jesus Christ. Either absolutely disingenuous, or zero self-reflection. You're all for genocidal states until it's Bad Camp, I guess.

Good.

So funny how all of them come from Saudi then isn’t it?

Jesus fucking Christ. "I'm not racist, I'm just asking questions about why all these ISIS are BORN IN SAUDI ARABIA"

10/10.

Wahabism is the Saudi state idology

Yes.

and exclusively spread by the Saudis.

No. But considering your position dehumanizing all oppressed peoples as helpless puppets that need a Campist Savior(tm) like you to guide them, it's unsurprising that you think as much.

You can stop opening Google and digging yourself in a hole.

Sorry that I'm relatively well-read on the matter. I understand that your games of internet telephone with your fellow 'anti-imperialist' friends who can't tell the difference between Islamist groups and switch sides as often as is needed to oppose 'bad camp' are much more entertaining than actual history.

He didn't leave ISIS. He never joined. Al-Baghdadi attempted to 'soft coup' and fold the Al-Nusra Front under his command, which did not satisfy the more Al-Qaeda aligned Jolani. Nor did it, for that matter, satisfy Al-Qaeda, which both groups pledged nominal allegiance to at the time.

Jolani's atrocities are a different discussion entirely. You can be shitty and Islamist without being part of ISIS. And, for that matter, you can be brutal without being ISIS.

Yes the guy who worked with Al Baghdadi has no relation to ISIS. Put a new sticker on it and it’s good to go!

"Wow two Jihadis that fought the US occupation in Iraq worked together at one point, clearly this means that ISIS and Al-Nusra are the same!"

It's amazing that people like you claim to be anti-imperialist whilst maintaining a Bush Administration level of understanding of the Middle East. Can't wait 'til you advocate an invasion of Ba'athist Iraq to defeat Al-Qaeda.

ISIS and Al Qaeda are both Saudi Wahabi groups. You clearly have no idea what the deal with Wahabis is and should probably read up on that if you think it implies racism.

That you think him being born in Saudi Arabia has anything to do with ISIS, or that Wahhabis are exclusively Saudi instead of a religious movement which has been spread across MENA since the 18th goddamn century, when it started, with only a brief suppression with the popularity of secular Ba'athist ideology in the Cold War, is immensely racist.

Sorry that you can't see why quoting where someone is born as proof of their ISIS credentials is immensely fucking racist.

> A 2021 PBS interview with Jolani revealed that he was born in 1982 in **Saudi Arabia**, where his father worked as an oil engineer until 1989.

Oh no. Born in Saudi Arabia. Clearly this means he is ISIS.

Definitely not a racist connection for you to make. /s

In that year, the Jolani family returned to Syria, where he grew up and lived in the Mezzeh neighbourhood of Damascus.

He LIVED in SYRIA as a child? Holy shit, he's deep ISIS

Jolani's journey as a jihadist began in Iraq, linked to al-Qaeda through the Islamic State (IS) group's precursor - al-Qaeda in Iraq and, later, the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI).

>

After the 2003 US-led invasion, he joined other foreign fighters in Iraq and, in 2005, was imprisoned at Camp Bucca, where he enhanced his jihadist affiliations and later on was introduced to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the quiet scholar who would later go on to lead IS.

"Jolani fought under Al-Qaeda during the Iraq Occupation" isn't really all that compelling for your narrative of "He was ISIS" when the whole point here is that you couldn't tell the difference between ISIS and Al-Qaeda, despite all your posturing about how other people are ignorant and racist.

In 2011, Baghdadi sent Jolani to Syria with funding to establish al-Nusra Front, a covert faction tied to ISI. By 2012, Nusra had become a prominent Syrian fighting force, hiding its IS and al-Qaeda ties.

From your own source, **literally** starting the sentence after this, which I will generous assume you just didn't read instead of disingenuously reading and then disregarding in the hope of quoting a misleading narrative:

Tensions arose in 2013 when Baghdadi's group in Iraq unilaterally declared the merger of the two groups (ISI and Nusra), declaring the creation of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS), and publicly revealing for the first time the links between them.

>

Jolani resisted, as he wanted to distance his group from ISI's violent tactics, leading to a split.

>

To get out of that sticky situation, Jolani pledged allegiance to al-Qaeda, making Nusra Front its Syrian branch.

>

From the start, he prioritised winning Syrian support, distancing himself from IS's brutality and emphasising a more pragmatic approach to jihad.

Do you know Al Nusra origins?

Oh, this ought to be good. Please tell me how Al-Nusra spawned from ISIS.

Jolani is from ISIS and Al Qaeda. Ring any bells?

"Jolani is from ISIS"

Imagine being so racist that you confuse al-Sharaa's longtime enemy with the org he served.

It is impressive that some people are willing to defend, allying with a genocidal ethnostate while projecting its crimes at those who oppose it.

>

Your lack of knowledge on this subject is only surpassed by your arrogance and racism.

lmao

Accusing me of ignorance, arrogance, and racism, as you implore Syrians to side with the people who were literally sending troops to genocide Syrians. Sorry that you didn't follow the Syrian Civil War at all, maybe you should read up on it before talking Syrian international politics in the immediate aftermath.

Very based!

“No you see, he is openly telling everyone that he wants to fight Iran with Israel’s help because… He is looking for allies!”

Yes, Syria is looking for allies. I don't know why you think that Iran isn't one of the threats towards Syria, considering their atrocious behavior in the Syrian Civil War and their current support of genocidal Assadist militias. I guess sectarian genocide is okay as long as it's The Axis Of Resistance, right?

All signs indicate that the new Syrian dictator is an American-Israeli-backed agent who overthrew the Assad regime with the help of the US, Israel and Turkey.

Christ.