Exclusive: Pakistan's Chinese-made jet brought down two Indian fighter aircraft, US officials say

Good point. Looks like my view is at least a decade out of date. Here I am thinking about how the West relied Pakistan in the Cold War while India was a regular customer of Russian arms exports.

I just looked for some actual recent data; now with the Russian weapons export business largely dead thanks to their three day invasion, India is sourcing most weapons imports from the US and France. Meanwhile over 80% of Pakistan’s imports are from China.

Pakistan is essentially the cornerstone of Xi's Belt Road Initiative from the last decade. It's India 100%.

Still India. India is currently aiding in the destruction of too many industries in western economies to be treated as anything other than an ally; in short if the west treats India as hostile the companies that own the governments in the west start changing those governments.

Sorry, I used "liberal" too liberally. The progressive West, then.

They're both brown and follow religions that are in the minority in the West, even if massively popular in that region.

Pakistan has been largely aligned with the west for the most part. Think they are again with Khan out as PM.

India. Pakistan is majority Muslim.

Oh, I know about a lot of these long term rivalries. It's less clear which ones the liberal West will support in this case, though.

I can see you've never come across Pakistani/Hindu nationalists online. My impressions so far are: they are angry, hate each other, lie like russians and tens (maybe even hundreds) of millions of them speak English. :D good luck

Nothing to fight about on that. The Zionists are committing a genocide against Palestinians because they want to steal their land.

There is no Israel-Gaza conflict. Surely you've meant the Zionist genocide of Palestinians?

this is no conflict, Israel has been committing genocide since the Nakba

He also killed the Austro-Hungarian who was staunchly against war on the Balkans keeping the warmonger Hötzendorf in check and for more independence for minorities inside the empire.

It's fascinating how Gavrilo Princip put himself into the historical record of humanity. He will be discussed in history books many centuries from now (if we get that far and if the concept of "learning" as we think of it now is even relevant then).

One guy with a pistol caused WWI, if countries build up a military for decades they will find a reason to use it eventually.

>A dozen guys with rifles, murdering 26 civilians, have caused two countries to wreck billions worth of equipment and one of them to play games with a large river too.

You think that was an isolated incident?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%E2%80%93Pakistan_relations#Wars,_conflicts,_and_disputes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_state-sponsored_terrorism

This looks really cool. Thanks for sharing.

Trailers are so fuckin useless these days. If you watch more than the first 10 seconds you have no reason to watch the movie anymore.

It's a real movie https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13818368/ probably available from y'er usual place 🏴‍☠️

After watching that i feel like I've seen the whole movie.

Where can I see this masterpiece

>But Pakistan shouldn't be taken at its word.

Yeah I agree.

>Not only that, Azhar gave a speech there after being reported missing for two years on, again, Nov. 30 2024, in Muridke.

Yeah that's circumstantial evidence, which makes it slightly more likely but doesn't prove that the camp was active in 2024.

>Otherwise, why would those three LeT members die, if it was only civilian infrastructure?

Do you have a source for the claim that three LeT members died? Because the reporting I found said they were JuD members who lead prayers and acted as caretakers for the mosque, in which case that's your answer for why they died in the strike. Also, if they were indeed LeT members, maybe because they were there for any other reason? I mean it has a mosque and a madrasa, places Muslims would want to go to for reasons other than to attack India.

>Why would Rauf lead the funeral at that camp, record it and upload it, if that very location did not have any terrorists?

Why not? I'm not sure what exactly you wanted to happen here.

>Why would Azhar feel secured enough to be right there and give a speech and record it, making it available to any journalist with an internet connection, in full view of his location?

Because he was confident nobody would turn him in? I don't see the connection between this and Muridke being active.

Everything you outlined here is, as I said, vaguely related circumstantial evidence that only serves as evidence if you're already convinced Muridke was being used as a terrorist camp. You still need cold, hard evidence here, and I see none.

The broader points were Pakistan's habit of denial, which has continued till 2022. If they shielded Mir till **2022**, why do you expect me to believe they aren't shielding the Muridke camp either? I agree, India should provide evidence to the international community. But Pakistan shouldn't be taken at its word.

Not only that, Azhar gave a speech there after being reported missing for two years on, again, Nov. 30 **2024, in Muridke**. Three LeT members as of yesterday, **2025** were reported dead by Pakistan itself, and the Army attended their funerals and wrapped them in Pakistan flags and did their *janaza* **in that very campus**. This confirms the camp was active as of 2024 and terrorists were present when India struck that camp. Otherwise, why would those three LeT members die, if it was only civilian infrastructure? Why would Rauf lead the funeral at that camp, record it and upload it, if that very location did not have any terrorists? Why would Azhar feel secured enough to be *right there* and give a speech and record it, making it available to any journalist with an internet connection, in full view of his location? This is not 'vibes' based targeting. It's cold, hard proof of the presence of known LeT members. That particular camp.

>There were several points you straight up ignored.

Yeah, because they're all from before 2019 and therefore don't counter the Pakistani government's claim that they took over the camp in 2019.

>Forgive me if I, or even academics like the ones above are sceptical of Pakistan's claims of taking over that mosque

Fair enough, but I expect more than skepticism as justification for bombing what is ostensibly civilian infrastructure, and from what I know if India has evidence it remained in use as a terror camp after 2019 they haven't provided it.

Edit: I didn't directly respond to your points this time either because while they do prove the Pakistani army is in bed with terrorists, they're not proof that this particular camp is being used by terrorists. Civilian infrastructure (or what is claimed to be civilian infrastructure) shouldn't be bombed based on vaguely related circumstantial evidence and vibes.

Yeah, you're right mate, but he's talking specifically about the Muridke one. This one too, was evidently a terror base as confirmed by Azhar himself. Though it's actually quite famous among journalists. Afaik, the one at Sawai Nala, Muzaffarabad was also involved in the 26/11 attack, from what I've read. Crazy how these people deny years of evidence collected by their own countries. Like, I'm just a normal person, not the intelligence agency and even I could recognise several camps based on reading foreign academic research on LeT and Pakistan. It's kind of funny how well known they are, how often these names pop up in books and papers, including actual written propaganda, leaflets and magazines. It's not some secret that only RAW knows about.

>But that doesn't mean I'm going to take pity on Pakistan and denounce how my country is responding to their aggression. Fuck Pakistan.

I argued about the response to the massacre (which, by the way, hasn't been conclusively linked to Pakistan so there's no proof of "aggression") with the other guy so you can just see that. Here I just wanna point out that no matter how accurate or justified the Indian response was, Modi *will* use this as an opportunity to curtail democracy and consolidate power further. Therefore, cheering on the strikes as "responding to aggression" is playing right into Modi's hand. If you want to keep what little remains of your democratic rights you have to start pushing back on this now.

Jaish-e-Muhhamad: "Maulana Masood Azhar, a UN-designated terrorist based in Pakistan, has announced that 10 members of his family and four close associates have been killed in India's strike on the Subhan Allah Mosque in Bahawalpur, Pakistan.

A statement issued on Wednesday by the militant group he heads - Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) - said that the deceased included his elder sister and her husband, his nephew and his wife, a niece, and five children from his family.

The group also said that the strike killed three of Azhar's close aides and the mother of one of them."

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyneele13qt?post=asset%3Adeb867d3-47b9-4faa-9079-d92027b3dcce#post

Tell is again Modi himself ordered destruction of a random mosque in Pakistan for no reason.

Modi is a fascist. He's a megalomaniac. He is responsible for Gujarat riots. I fucking hate him.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to take pity on Pakistan and denounce how my country is responding to their aggression. Fuck Pakistan.

Wow. So you ignored the whole

1) Shielding of Sajad Mir till **2022**, despite official Pakistani government claims that he was dead.

2) Historical denial of 2008 attacks for **several years**, despite Pakistani claims that they weren't involved

3) Lakhvi's release in **2015**, despite claims that 2008 terrorists were dealt with

4) Pakistani army officials attending the funeral of known terrorists in the presence of UN designated terrorist, Hafiz Abdul Rauf, in **2025**, despite claims that they don't support terrorism

5) Pakistan's historical 'good terrorist, bad terrorist' double game, and evidence for its continuation **today**, despite claims that it doesn't

Well, here's the thing. Masood Azhar, who had disappeared from intelligence agencies for nearly two years due to international pressure, resurfaced **in the same Muridke camp** on **30 November 2024** and gave a speech. Forgive me if I, or even academics like the ones above are sceptical of Pakistan's claims of taking over that mosque. Also, work on your reading comprehension. There were several points you straight up ignored.

Golden temple is also the largest free kitchen in the world, feeding many people. it is an extremely pure form of evil to attack the golden temple.

So... uh... the mosque that was attacked was taken over by the government in 2019. There's no reason to believe that the continuity you're implying between its use in 2008 and 2025 exists.

Many of the mosques in Pakistan are little more than extremist training camps and arguably have little to do with Islam.

Got a source for that? Because according to Pakistan 31 civilians, including at least two children, were killed in the strike, and while I'm not one to take belligerents' words at face value these numbers are hard to fake.

I wouldn't be so quick to portray the strike as solely a bombing of religious institutions. I don't know which exact Mosque India hit and what its background is, but the situation is a bit more complex than you describe.

Many of the mosques in Pakistan are little more than extremist training camps and arguably have little to do with Islam. This isn't unique to Pakistan, from living in the US, I got the impression that many Christian "churches" are more like corruption/tax fraud schemes and/or fronts for enabling political corruption.

Pakistan is a nation of terrorists, which is why they hid bin ladin. They get what they deserve.

-Them. Do you get what I mean? Whatever problems Pakistan may have—and however democratic India might be—doesn't excuse lobbing rockets at mosques. Also what's that about them being pro-terrorism?

Bin ladin killed many thousands, good luck beating his kill count.

Not only Hindus. Their treatment of Ahmadis is deplorable. They can't vote (unless they declare themself to be non Muslim). They can't pray in public, quote the Quran or pray in regular mosques. They aren't considered Muslim. The constitution itself discriminates against them.

"Fuck them to death"

Charming.

I'm not pro-hindu at all.

But fuck Pakistan, fuck them to death.

Btw, it's funny you mention zionism.

Becauae Pakistan expelled or massacred their Hindus worse than the dreams of Israel.

Also: "Everybody I disagree with is a zionist." lemmy's favorite game.

I mean, that's fine.

I don't hate India because they actually were fairly progressive in the past, even if they're backsliding now.

Can I be anti-everyone involved?

You've been spewing hindutva shit throughout this thread so if you claim to not be a Hindu nationalist then stop carrying water for fascists. You sound like Zionists trying to "prove" that Israel should be allowed to genocide Gazans.

Who's the worst terrorist in history?

The points raised about Pakistan are true though. The government has always been pro-terrorism.

Modi is a piece of shit and is honestly an embarrassment for India. One of India's strengths was relative tolerance of cultural diversity and a strong commitment to democracy (something you don't often see with relatively poor countries).

Nope, secular atheist from the US.

But Pakistan is a plague, they support terrorism for fun, they supported the worst terrorist in history while pretending to help find him.

Everybody should be anti-Pakistan as a matter of course.

Compared to Pakistan, yes it is a beacon of women's rights.

They literally supported the taliban, it's hard to go any lower for any country.

As opposed to India, the beacon of women’s rights. We just don’t like hatemongering

Yeah ok, I guess that's a good thing?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pakistan-rape-rapist-released-agreement-marry-victim/

Lemmy is pro-trans, pro-muslim, but amazingly anti-woman which is always odd.

They not only held Bin Laden in 2011, but brought back Sajad Mir from the dead in *2022*. He was one of the key conspirators of the 2008 Mumbai attacks. Look up how Pakistan first denied he existed, then denied he was alive, and then finally brought him back from the dead after 14 years.

Pakistan has actually been democratizing these past few years, so at this rate they'll be more of a democracy than India.

Wow, hindutva in the Fediverse. That's new.

It used to be part of Pakistan actually.

Literally wtf are you trying to say here? Yeah, Bangladesh was Pakistan once but that was decades and decades ago. It's not at all relevant anymore today.

They supported the taliban and are why the taliban took back control and brutally subjugated all the women again.

True, but recently, Taliban is breaking ties with Pakistan and creating ties with India. Might wanna read this and this. Also India supported the brutal fascism in Bangladesh, but that gets a pass, I guess?

Note how there are no Hindu communities in Pakistan, because during paritition they were expelled or massacred.

Not entirety true, 2% of their population is still Hindu. And yeah, they are also not in great shape. But India is doing the same with their minorities. Why are you blaming only one but not the other?

India is literally the only democracy around.

Yeah, but not quite. India's democracy has been backsliding hard

Pakistan is a nation of terrorists, which is why they hid bin ladin. They get what they deserve

Ah yes. They hid bin Laden in back in 11, so Pakistan, their entire nation and population are still terrorists now. Meanwhile ignore all of India's wrong doings.

I don't wanna devolve this thread into whataboutism, so the bottom line, both countries are shits. I don't know much about Pakistan's politics now but democratically it's not good yes. But India right now is a literal segregating fascist state.

They are also threatening to completely cut off Pakistan from the most important river of the region which would mean instant mass starvation and catastrophe.

I have heard about Bangladesh.

It used to be part of Pakistan actually.

Pakistan was so fascist (basically military juntas all the way down) that Bangladesh rebelled and took its independence.

Bhutto was executed for this, and his daughter was later assassinated just for fun.

They supported the taliban and are why the taliban took back control and brutally subjugated all the women again.

Note how there are no Hindu communities in Pakistan, because during paritition they were expelled or massacred.

There are nearly as many Muslims in India than in Pakistan (200m VS 240m).

India is literally the only democracy around.

Pakistan is a nation of terrorists, which is why they hid bin ladin. They get what they deserve.

Markaz Taiba, Muridke was NOT a mosque. It is a very well known terror hideout, even among international journalists. It was used to train Ajmal Kasab and David Headley for the 2008 attacks, which he confessed to in 2008. Osama Bin Laden himself paid for its construction. It was founded in 1988 and Lakhvi himself frequented it. How utterly ignorant you people are. Do some more research. Most Indians remember Kasab's confession.

>In this book I argue that Lashkar’s evolution is informed by two defining dualities: the first is its identity as a militant outfit and as a missionary organization committed to promoting its interpretation of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam

>In 1984, Lakhvi broke away and formed a small Ahl-e-Hadith group of his own. A year later, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed and Zafar Iqbal, two teachers at the University of Engineering and Technology (Lahore) Pakistan, formed Jamaat-ul-Dawa [Organization for Preaching, or JuD]. This was a small missionary order primarily dedicated to preaching the tenets of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam as interpreted by its founders. Soon after, the two joined forces.

(Source-Storming the World: the Story of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Tankel Stephen)

>Born in 1987 in Faridkot, Pakistan, Kasab dropped out of school thirteen years later to work as a laborer in his hometown. Within a year he left for Lahore, where he again worked as laborer for nearly five years. After quarreling with his father, Kasab struck out on his own. He landed a job in Jhelum city, north of Lahore. Unhappy with his meager income, Kasab quit in November 2007 and moved to Rawalpindi with a colleague named Muzaffar. A month later Kasab came upon Lashkar members collecting animal hides in the name of Jamaat-ul-Dawa during Eid al-Adha. He and Muzaffar obtained Lashkar’s office address and showed up declaring their desire to wage violent jihad. After giving their names, addresses and other details they were told to return the following morning with extra clothes, whereupon the two received 200 rupees for the bus trip to ‘a place called Marqas Taiyyaaba, Muridke’ where ‘LeT is having their training camp.’ Upon arrival there the two were promptly enrolled in Lashkar’s Daura-e-Suffa training.

(Same source. The book was published in 2011. Daura-e-Suffa refers to religious training, according to the LeT's interpretation of the Hadiths and the Quran.)

The article you linked mentioned the seminary and classes. This is what it is.

>Life after the ban was not as easy for any of Pakistan’s jihadi groups as it had been beforehand. Fundraising, recruitment and training were restricted to different degrees for different outfits, but none got off scot-free if only because these activities could no longer be carried out as overtly as hitherto. However, the Musharraf regime had no plans to dismantle all of Pakistan’s proxies. As part of what has become known as Pakistan’s ‘double game,’ militant outfits were categorized as ‘good jihadis’ that were covertly supported for continued use as proxies and ‘bad jihadis’ that were cracked down on more harshly. This was not a purely binomial division. Assessments and treatment existed on a spectrum, meaning some ‘good jihadis’ were treated better than others and some ‘bad jihadis’ cracked down on more harshly. Categorization was based on the threats that a group posed to the state and the utility it continued to offer.

ibid. Now look up 'good Taliban' and 'bad Taliban'. The Pakistani establishment still follows the same protocol for terrorists today; kill the ones that are harmful to its interests, or if pressured enough, US interests and let the ones that act as a useful proxy against India to operate freely. Look up Sajad Mir, and how Pakistan denied he existed for many years, then said he died long ago, until he was suddenly declared alive in 2022 and convicted. A French anti-terrorism expert, Jean-Louis Bruguière, in his Some Things that I Wasn't Able to Say has stated that the Pakistani army trained the militants in the LeT camps based on his interrogation of Sajad Mir's French companion, Willy Brigiditte.

>Lashkar was the most reliable in Islamabad’s eyes and fared the best. To begin with, it benefited from stronger connections to Pakistan’s army, ISI and civil service than other groups. Several journalists pointed out that, in addition to having recruited retired army and ISI officers into its ranks, Lashkar members had family in the middle ranks of the army and various civilian security agencies. Thus, the group was better connected than any other militant out-fit.4 It also had no strong allegiance to the Taliban and therefore was viewed as less of a threat to the state. According to one former senior official in the Intelligence Bureau, the government ordered Lashkar not to side with the Taliban in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.When it complied, this reinforced the perception that it was an obedient and reliable proxy. Finally, Lashkar’s leadership shared Musharraf’s India-centric priorities and the group remained Pakistan’s most potent proxy. One Western diplomat stationed in Pakistan went so far as to suggest the Musharraf regime would have sacrificed the other outfits if necessary in order to protect Lashkar because of its utility against India.

ibid.

To quote my other comment on c/India:

>During the brutal Mumbai attacks, Pakistan denied all charges of complicity. India did everything ‘right’ - it gave a fair trial to Kasab, shared evidence with the international community and urged Pakistan to crack down on terror camps in their country. But what did Pakistan do? It denied that Kasab was a Pakistani national, denied that they had any such camps, banned journalists from going to Kasab’s village. It took years of investigation and coordination with the intelligence agencies of other countries to prove that ISI officials (which worked with the CIA during the Soviet-Afghan War) were complicit. David Headley (thanks America, you never fail to disappoint when creating terrorists) and Tahawuur Rana, masterminds of the attacks, provided the necessary clues.

>Pre-26/11 India and Pakistan had the warmest relations they’d had in years. Pakistan’s denial, and subsequent investigation, other terrorist attacks after this (there were many) by the same organisations changed everything.

>Sajad Mir, a man claimed by the Pakistani government to be a fantasy cooked up by India, was found to be a real person, one of the planners of the Mumbai attacks. The efforts of international journalists (https://www.propublica.org/article/the-man-behind-mumbai) proved his role. In fact, he had even planned a terrorist attack in Australia, and his fellow conspirator, a French terrorist whose name I don’t recall right now revealed that he was well known in the Pakistani Army and freely went into Pakistani Army bases which civilians typically aren’t allowed to go into, let alone know their location or members. This was when he and his buddy were training Lashker-e-Taiba. Is it so surprising that this genocidal army wouldn’t do anything about known terrorists, then?

>Pakistan’s army committed a genocide in living memory - the genocide of Bangladeshis. This is the state you’re defending, and the groups that have spawned from it, which provides cover to the worst scum if it serves their purposes.

>Anyway, onto Mir. Mir was declared dead after it was found that he wasn’t so imaginary after all. Pakistan shifted the goalposts - he died long ago, we don’t have to hand him over to India. Then, magically in 2022, he was brought back from the dead and convicted. A French magistrate said that he was a member of the Pakistani Army. He was the son of an officer, after all. Why did Pakistan lie and protect such men? Why did Pakistan’s ISI destroy key evidence in the trial? Why did the state withhold evidence if it has nothing to do with terrorists?

>Why are Lakhvi and Hafiz Saeed still chilling in Pakistan? They both have an Interpol red notice. Why is he roaming freely in the country and giving inflammatory speeches? Saeed said his party would be contesting elections in 2018. This is an anti-terrorist state? Yesterday, Masood Azhar said that his mosque and seminary were hit by the missile – why does he have a seminary and mosque to radicalise poor young men of Pakistan? Why does Pakistan take absolutely no action on terrorists except when said terrorists harm the army’s interests?

>To claim that the Pakistani state/army (the state has no real power; no PM has served their full term in Pakistan) and the terror apparatus are somehow separate entities flies in the face of evidence.

>This same government released Lakhvi in 2015 on bail, who was one of the founders of LeT. 7 years after the attacks. He was released, and is apparently given 3 five-year sentences. Why such leniency, and such convenient disappearance and reappearence?

If you had been following the research after the 2008 Mumbai attacks, you wouldn't be saying this. Also, Pakistan directly targeted the Golden Temple, the most famous Gurudwara in India. Funny how you didn''t mention that. Honestly, read. Look up C. Christine Fair, and read her work about LeT. It wasn't religiously motivated, it was against known terror bases. There is a list. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/operation-sindoor-full-list-of-terrorist-camps-in-pakistan-pojk-targeted-by-indian-strikes/article69547986.ece with details about who was trained there, which attacks were carried out from there and when. You are literally years behind on the information--2008 and subsequent investigations have revealed quite a lot about LeT's activities there.

Also, the Pakistan Army just held a funeral for a UN designed terrorist there. At the innocent 'mosque.' While the Pakistan army continues shelling across Jammu, targeting schools, houses and civilian infrastructure, killing more civilians than armymen.

India's shitty neighbors? Oh, come on. India is a really shitty neighbor themselves. Yeah, Pakistan Bad, China Bad, but India isn't any better.

India right now is literally being ruled by a bunch of hindutva fascists. They are creating a religious divide, oppressing religious minorities and spreading industrial amount propaganda against them. May I remind you, India was the first one to strike Pakistan, and they striked a mosque. It's definitely a religiously motivated attacked.

Also ever heard of their neighboring country Bangladesh? It was ruled by a fascist regime that was very friendly to India. Up until 2024 when a mass uprising dismantled them) and they fled to India. At least 1,500 people were murdered during the movement, and India is giving these war criminals shelter. India has also been ever since running a huge misinformation campaign against Bangladesh, stopping imports and exports, denying VISAs, even threatening to invade in some cases. Because they miss exploiting Bangladesh under their friendly fascists.

They should stop escalating this folly.

It would be a major victory for a dozen terrorists, if they managed to provoke two large countries into an actual war, and currently this seems to be happening.

A dozen guys with rifles, murdering 26 civilians, have caused two countries to wreck billions worth of equipment and one of them to play games with a large river too.

This is not supposed to be possible. If this is possible, it's proof that terrorism works. :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1htGY3_lO4M

Finally we can fight about something other than the Israeli-Gaza conflict.

I really hope this wakes them up.

India is in a really bad neighborhood but their defense industry is corrupt beyond reason.

They need to fix it so they can be as powerful as they should be given their shitty neighbors.